Mastering Vendor Finance: Control Assets Without Your Own Money with Motiul Islam

Welcome back to Girls in Property! In today’s episode, Athena is excited to chat with the king of vendor finance, Motiul Islam. This conversation is especially meaningful for Athena, as she first met Motiul two years ago during her initial property education course. Now, having him on the podcast feels like a full-circle moment!

So, what is vendor finance? It’s the ultimate strategy for acquiring assets without using any of your own money! Motiul is here to share his latest projects, demonstrate how he’s making it work, and provide the essential dos and don’ts for closing the deal using this no money down technique. 

Don’t miss out on this episode filled with top tips, plenty of laughs, and an engaging discussion!

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Transcript

0:02

Good morning, everyone. Happy Monday and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. Hope you're all doing well today. Hope you're all having a wonderful Monday morning wherever you may be. So today I have somebody who I've been wanting to get on the podcast for some time. He's absolutely fabulous. He does amazing, amazing techniques and strategies within the No Money Down world, does lots of investing and is an all right, really, really cool, awesome guy. So today I would love to introduce you to model Islam. Hey. Thanks for having me on and I've got a head from what you just said about myself. No, of course! I always think it's important and did I pronounce your name correctly? Because I always get really conscious of that when doing names because of my name as well. Well, let's just say everybody pronounces my name slightly differently. It's so hard though, isn't it? Always when you're trying to be like, is that how you pronounce your name? Is that correct? And I always like to double check because if people mispronounce my name, I just sort of like, right, okay. I get anthea quite a lot. yeah, I'm like, no, that's not quite how you pronounce my name. Now for me, not many people know this, but until I went to progressive, most people didn't even call me by my first name. Most people used to call me by my surname. So I was almost confused when people would call me by my first name. Yeah. so, so what, they never called you by your name? Why, why did they not call you by your name? So, let's just say, Bengali, you get two names. You get one for the house and one for outside. And I was never called by what was on, let's just say, birth certificate and passport. So I've got a different name at home. But after school, college, university, I was always called by my surname. So I've never been used to people calling me by my first name. So when people ask how do you pronounce it, well, everybody's pronounced it slightly differently. And I just go with it. You're like, yeah, just call me just call me whatever. I love that, I love that. And Motul, for people who haven't met you before, perhaps haven't heard of you as it were, could you please start off by introducing yourself, tell everybody a little bit about you, what you do within the property sector, your personal life, and then we can take the conversation from Yep, yep, yep. So I've been a property investor, stock landlord for 20 plus years now. I started buying large properties and converting them into flats. myself, I'm a father of four, married father of four. Where do you want to really know? That's kind of like where I kind of like see myself. Everybody else kind of sees it slightly differently. So yeah. That's where I see myself. I'm just a married father of four and a property investor. I love that and what we're going to be focusing on today guys because Motul, are, if you'd me to say like the king of this, if I ever needed a question about this I would come to you, would be all around vendor finance. And I've never had anybody on the podcast talk about vendor finance so that's what we're going to be talking about today as sort of your key strategy. But before I do that, I'd like to say, a father of four, what is that like to have four children? I think that's great. I wouldn't mind having a few more actually, but I think the Mrs. will be too happy with that. think, you know what, I'm a big kid myself, so having four kids, it just seems that. I love that and what are the age ranges? How old is your eldest and how old is your youngest? My oldest is my daughter, she's 14 now and my youngest is 8. So I've got 3 girls and 1 boy. Three girls and a boy! my goodness, wow. I thought, I don't know why, I thought it might be the other way around. I thought you might have had more sons than daughters. I don't know why, just in my head I thought that. Wow. You have a lot of fun to come your way with three girls. Well they're coming to their, well they're all going to be teenagers at one point. I worked out out that they're all going to be teenagers at one point at the same time. So I'm looking forward to that. my goodness, you have so much to learn. I love that. I love that. And if you were to talk about at the moment something that you're celebrating, what would you say that you're celebrating at this moment in I think you might have seen that I'm, well I'd say most of the time I'm smiling. I say I'm just celebrating life. I think you know what, I'm happy with how things are, content with how things are, so I'm just celebrating life. You know what? I adore that. that's why I wanted to get you on this podcast. You're the most humble down to earth, quite frankly, and I mean this as a compliment, normal guy that I've met. You're just really, you always give without expecting to receive. You always come from a place of kindness. I just think you're such a great representation of a person within the industry, if you don't mind me saying, I just think you're fab. And I think that what you just said is a great representation of that. The fact that you're celebrating just being happy and smiling and going, do you know what life Life is good. Definitely. I will just say this though, the summer holidays have just started. I might ask you this again at the end of the school holidays, me like, you still smiling? We'll see. You can ask me in six weeks Yeah, my goodness. And what am I celebrating at the moment? Do you know what? It's really funny. You'd think that I'd actually have thought about this. So I'm gonna celebrate something different today. today I'm gonna celebrate the fact that for my property lifestyle accelerator program and bits, it's going really, really well at the moment. And what's amazing is I did this sort of, I offered out this free. mindset module that people could come and learn from me with. And it's effectively module one of my seven step blueprint that I created as part of the Property Lifestyle Accelerator program. And what's been amazing is so many people have taken up my offer of that and messaged me and connected with me. And we've been having such amazing conversations and I've been learning about so many different people and what they're doing. Even people who don't even live in the UK. So for example, I had somebody the other day. And she messaged me, she says, hi, Fina, I listen to your podcast, I live in Italy, but would love to learn more in things. And I'm like, wow, like this is international. And I was learning all about where she lived and everything. And it's just, it's so wonderful to think how many people, or I should say you don't realize how many people you reach with your voice, both in the UK and internationally. And I think that's such a gift. It's such a gift to be able to say, do you know what, know, come and learn. take my experience, take this and not try and expect anything in return. I'm like you Motel, I believe in good vibes, good karma and this idea of don't chase, attract. And I'm really beginning to understand what that actually means through the Girls in Property community, podcast events, people coming to me asking me for mentoring who I haven't even reached out to just because they're hearing my voice and they're hearing other people speak about me within the industry in a, well, I assume a positive way. Otherwise, they wouldn't reach out. And I think that's such a great thing to celebrate is this idea of, I'm just going to put my torch out and see who comes my way, which is such a wonderful place to be and a much more calmer place to be as well. So yeah, I'm going to celebrate that, which is cool. That's amazing because I remember seeing you two years ago when you when I first met you and How you've grown since then? mean, I know a lot of people have imposter syndrome or they think can we do this or can I do this? but the way you've actually grown in and your confidence your confidence has just Exponentially grown it's been amazing to see that it's really nice to see as well and the fact that you're not just taking it for yourself, but you're happy to share it like spread the word or spread it with people. That's nice. That's good. And I think that comes back. Whatever you put out there, comes back to you. So that's really nice to Thank you. And I love that. And actually I should say to the listeners, so the property course that I did, Motel, you were literally one of the mentors, the, I don't know what the right, yeah, mentors is the right word to use here. And I remember being that, as you say, that sort of inexperienced person sat there going, Motel, how do I do this? What do I do? And we had lunch together and you were like, you'll be okay. Everything will be And now two years later, look at us, we're sat here and I'm like, fancy coming on my podcast. And you're like, yeah. The world is a weird, weird place, but a wonderful place, a wonderfully weird place. So let's talk vendor finance, because I know you love to talk about vendor finance. And what I'm going to do is I'm going to treat this episode as if I know nothing about vendor finance, so that I ask you questions that I'm sure people listening to this who would like to learn about it. can sort of start with the basics and then learn how they can do it for themselves. So first of all, can we start with the absolute basic of please explain what vendor finance is? Okay. So we have to slightly jump out of the box that most people are already in. So when you are investing in property, usually you have a process that you think is the normal way. So first of all, we need to throw that all away and come away from that. You have to be open to go back to basics basically, right? So what is Vendor Finance? It's as simple as the person that's selling you the property is lending you the money for the property. Now that might sound, hang on a second, the person selling me the property is also giving me the money for the property. They're not physically giving it to you. And that's why people get a little bit confused. So what is vendor finance? Vendor finance is somebody giving you their asset and expecting you to pay them slowly or later. So it's almost like if you went to DFS and you bought a sofa and you bought today and paid later. That's basically, in a nutshell, what it is by now, pay later. love that. they effectively become the bank don't they? the actual owner. yeah. amazing. most people, even solicitors, get confused with. And if you are trying to do it for the first time, maybe you're going to explain it to the vendor, not in the way that they will understand it best. And that's where it falls down most of the time. coming back to really basic understanding makes it so much simpler to actually get it over the Yeah, I love that. And talk to me about the type of person who would want to do a vendor finance on a deal. Why would they want to do a vendor finance? There's going be many reasons why people would want to do vendor finance. The people that usually won't want to do a vendor finance are somebody that needs the money or all of their money now. So most of the time somebody that needs all of their money now, they can't lend you that money. Whereas somebody that wants, let's just say, a higher amount. So for argument's sake, they have a property worth 200 ,000 pounds. They're not willing to go down on their price, but they are willing to wait because they want to achieve the price of 200,000 pounds. Now, if they don't have a mortgage or they have a small mortgage, are they willing to wait a slightly longer period of time before they achieve their price? That is the type of person that you could approach and start discussing. there the possibility of this? Firstly, there's two different types of vendor finance. Both are vendor finance, but they are structured very different. And that's the reason why I do need to make you aware of that. Somebody that has no mortgage on their property, they can transfer their title deeds to you and they could take a charge on the property. However, somebody that has a mortgage on their property, they can't do that because they can't lend you the full amount. They have to satisfy their mortgage. And this is where it starts to get a little bit complicated. The first one where somebody has no mortgage is quite straightforward to do. And most solicitors will understand how to do it as long as it's explained to them correctly. The second one gets a little bit more complicated because you need more than two solicitors you usually need four. And that's where people start to get really confused. And rather than trying to confuse you how to do it all is basically what is meant to finance you are just like with DFS, buying now, paying later with somebody that owns it outright. With somebody that has a mortgage, you will need to take out a mortgage on that property to pay off their mortgage. And then the deposit amount that you might need to put in can be loaned to Hmm, interesting. Does sound quite complicated if people are listening. It is. The first one is actually quite straightforward. Yeah, the first one's straightforward. The first one is literally, if it's unencumbered, they become the bank and they literally become your lender effectively and you treat it like a mortgage and you pay it down. I think the second one's a bit more complicated with the four solicitors. So could we delve into that one a little bit deeper? So say that it does have a mortgage on it. What would be the first thing that somebody would need to look at for if they wanted to do this? First and foremost is, is the vendor happy or are they willing to lend you that money for a period of time? So this is an agreement you need to make with them. This isn't something you can just impose on somebody. Is their situation going to allow it? So firstly, can they lend you an amount? that might be to cover the deposit, might be to cover your stamp duty if you're carrying out any works or anything like that. It might be to cover these costs. Can they lend you that money? That's the first part. Once you've done that, you do need to raise the money for a deposit. So you do need to have that money. So if you don't have any money, it's not going to work. So you do need to have the money for the deposit. That's the first part. Once you've got a mortgage, when the money is lent to you, it can't be a second charge on the property that you've just bought. So how are you going to secure it? Are you going to give them a second charge on another property? Do you have an unencumbered property where you can give them a first charge? Is it going to be a straight loan agreement with personal guarantee? These are things that is not set in stone. These are things that you need to discuss with the vendor and see what works. Now, if it's somebody you know, like a friend, family friend, et cetera, you might get away with things like just a normal loan agreement because they know you and they might trust you. However, when you... working with somebody that you've just met or you've got a lead and you're trying to discuss with them, they probably won't be trusting you. They're hard in cash. So how can you make it secure for them and make sure that they're going to get paid back? That's what you need to be discussing. So if you don't have any assets that you can give them security with, they're not happy with a personal guarantee. Is there somebody else that you can get involved that can give a second child etc. Those are the things that you're going to need to discuss. Okay, perfect. And then let me think about this. So if I was a listener and let's say you're like, right, you are gonna need your deposit. So does that mean that you would need at least 25 ,000, sorry, 25 % deposit or can it be any amount? Okay, if you are buying in your so let's stick with the 25 % because generally we're buying for investment purposes, right? So the 25 % yes, you'll need 25 % you'll need money to cover your solicitor's costs, any mortgage arrangement fee, broker's fees, stamp duty, and any other fees that are associated with the purchase as well. So you're going to need all of Okay, so therefore if we need all of that, why would a listener choose to do vendor finance over a standard, let's say, buy to let investment property? Both are buy -to -let investment properties. difference being if you... Let's put it this way. If you need to buy a property, you need to save money or you need to have money. How do you get that money in the first place? Generally, people work and they save money and they use that money towards the purchase. That's generally, right? But the problem becomes once you've bought a property using that money, you can't buy another one. You're now totally out of cash. The whole point of going down the route of vendor finances If you have the money for a deposit and everything to purchase a property, you've purchased this property and the vendor has lent you the money back, you can go again. The whole point is to grow your portfolio. The whole point is to keep on buying more assets to be able to create more income, to create more capital and equity. The moment you've spent all of your money and you can't get it back and you can't go again, then your approach to investing is different. because you're now without any money to be able to go out and invest. So usually when people don't have money to invest, if you don't have enough money to buy, for instance, a property worth a million pounds, you don't normally look at Whereas if you now know you can raise the money for property worth a million pounds, you start looking at them. So when you're investing, you need to always look at ways that you can get to the next level and the next level and the next level. And vendor finance definitely allows you to look at levels that you normally wouldn't be looking Yeah, it's incredible. And obviously, like you said, it's all about recycling the cash. The other thing it might be worth saying is, is potentially the other type of person who might want to do this is somebody, for example, who can't get a mortgage at the moment. So rather than being able to do a straightforward buy to let mortgage, you would need to potentially do vendor finance because the, the, the lenders, high street lenders, et cetera, simply won't lend to you if you're self -employed, don't have three months pay slips, et And so vendor finance could therefore become a different option where you use the vendor as the bank. So I've seen that before, for example, where people have done One or two caveats with that. The first type, yes. So if you're buying from a vendor that doesn't have a mortgage and you're going to pay off in large chunks, yes, you can do that. If you're buying with a mortgage or they have a mortgage, you can't. But it's very good that you touched on not being able to get a mortgage because a lot of the time the properties that are un -mortgageable are the ones where you can do vendor finance. Okay, so the ones that most people will be looking getting a bridging loan or things like that, those are the ones that you might go down the route of getting or negotiating vendor finance. I'm doing one right now where we're buying a block of flats. The vendor has no mortgage on the property. He's got it unencumbered. We've negotiated that we're going to get vendor finance. So on the day we complete, he's going to get first charge on the property and we get the titles to the property. Simultaneously, we're doing a title split. problem when you do a title split is you can't get a normal mortgage, so you usually have to go onto a bridge until the titles are registered at land registry. At the moment, that takes about 12 months, 13 months. It takes quite long. Even with expediting, it takes quite long. So with our vendor, we've agreed we'll carry on paying you the rent, what comes in. We'll take the titles, you take first charge on the property. And once we've registered the titles at land registry, then we'll refinance and pay you back. Now, this would have had to be done with a bridge. So what we've done is rather than paying really high fees, rather than paying, know, extortionate interest rates, etc. We've reduced all of our costs by negotiating with the vendor. He hasn't lost out in any way. He's still getting what he gets right now in terms of his rent. But he's achieved his price. We've not negotiated on his price. So he's got what he wanted. So the whole point of it is he's won, we've won as well by helping each other out. And we basically just got rid of the bank who would have benefited or we would have been paying them a large amount. And that's kind of like what the game is, is to try and get rid of two things, paying lots of tax and fees. The two things that take money out your pocket, tax. monetary system taking the interest and fees and fiscal policies, so the government taxation. So those are the two things we try to reduce all the Wow, it's amazing when you just sit and you think about it and think the different ways it can be done. What would you say in regards to, because there are so many different types of vendors and landlords out there. Some will listen and understand it and others will just point blank, be like, no, I don't understand it. I'm not going to do it. So how do you get around it when you're speaking to some people who don't understand it and trying to explain to them that this would be the best option on, let's say, if they had an unencumbered property. You have to speak at their level. There's no point in complicating things. I would never go and say, would you do vendor finance? I would never turn around and say, would you lend me the money? This is where the understanding of it does get a little bit... It's not about complicating things. People complicate what is simple. So I would never say to the vendor, would you lend me the money to buy your property? That's not what I would say. I would say, look, I want to purchase your property and I want to buy it at a price you you stated if it was to do it slightly differently as opposed to the normal route, because if I go down the normal route, I have to make you a different offer, which is going to be a lot less. I don't even want to like insult you by making that offer. Can I just discuss something else? If I was to buy your property and pay you, let's say in 12 months time and carry on paying you a rent in between, would that be something that you'd be open to? Now, that's only to see if they are open to it first. If they Then comes second stage, third stage and fourth stage. So basically before I even start saying this, this, this, I want to know are they open to Right, okay, and if they're not open to it, what would you say? then it will be like, I'll go back to, okay, then if you're not open to what I can offer, is basically buying our price and that will be a lot less. Right, okay, perfect. So let's say that they do agree to it and they're like, tell me a little bit more about that. Is there like a structured way that you would then explain it to them? The structure is always based on what they want. The structure is always based on what they want. So for instance, this vendor that we're buying the block of flats from, he didn't have a problem with money or anything. He's not short of money. His problem with the block is he doesn't want to manage or maintain it. He's had enough of managing and maintaining. So what we've said is as soon as we exchange, we'll take over the management and maintenance. You won't have any deductions for the cost of management. You won't have any deductions for maintaining or refurbishments because there's one one place that's become empty and we're going to refurbish it at our cost. So we've told him, look, there'll be no cost to you, including the management cost. You'll get full rent. That's what we'll pay you until we have got the titles registered at that registry. And that's when we're going to refinance and then you're going to get paid. the price, you're not going to get any deductions at all even on that. So what's changed for him? He's done a paper transaction, nothing else has changed. We've got the titles, he's got first charge, he carries on getting what he's getting right now. So to him nothing in terms of has anything really changed apart from the titles and first charge, nothing else has changed. He carries on, if anything, it's better for him because he's not getting charged any management fee. any voids, any maintenance costs. And at the end of it, he's gotten paid the price that he wanted. Yeah, it's so much quicker. And also then you haven't got to get lenders involved, which takes time and everything. actually, I mean, how quick, I mean, obviously everything differs and I appreciate that and I'm sure it depends, but traditionally, how quick could a vendor finance deal be therefore? It will be the same as a normal purchase. will be the same as a normal purchase because you've got to do the same due diligence searches, conveyancing, etc. Everything else is exactly the same. Every purchase of a property is different so it depends on what you're buying and how you're doing it. But generally it's exactly the same as doing a normal purchase. You don't have the added issues of what do your, you know, like the bank or your lender, they might have some extra requirements. You don't have any of those. but I would still carry out a survey as normal as Yeah, absolutely. And as I'm sat here listening to you, I'm thinking to myself, this sounds very similar to, for example, something like a lease option agreement. So how does it differ to a lease option with the vendor finance? With vendor finance, you've actually bought it. So there's three that are similar. You've got exchange with delayed completion, you've got lease option, then you've got vendor finance. So I'd say that at three stages, a lease option gives you the option to buy something. So you're renting it and you have the option to buy it, but that doesn't obligate you. So you don't have to buy it. With an exchange with delayed completion, you've exchanged on it. So you are now contractually obliged to buy. and the vendor is obliged to sell to you. And you might have a date set when you're going to complete as well. So the difference between those two is one you don't have to buy and the other one you do. With vendor finance, it's neither of those two you've already bought. You've already bought the place. So with a lease option, the vendor will probably still have their mortgage if they have a mortgage. So if a vendor does have a mortgage on the property, where it's more complicated, it might be a better option to go down the least option route, depending on their situation. Right, okay, so interesting. And then one question I don't actually know the answer to, which I'm really curious about. So you're speaking about if the vendor has a mortgage on the property. So when you go to actually purchase it and exchange, at that time, could there be two separate mortgages on the property? No, just one. Yeah, yeah. And that would be still their mortgage. They would keep the mortgage. on exchange, if the exchange and completion is done on the same day, you would, on the same day, their mortgage would get paid off and your mortgage would then come into effect. So basically, your mortgage lender would lend the money. Basically, what would happen is your mortgage lender would lend the money and that would go to the vendor solicitors and they would redeem their mortgage. If there is a delay between exchange and completion, between exchange and completion, it would be their mortgage that would be in place. And on completion, again, the same exact same thing, your lender would lend the money that would go from your solicitor to their solicitor and then their mortgage will be Amazing. And would you say that you had to get a specialist type of solicitor to understand this or could you just go to a typical conveyancing solicitor? I don't like to use conveyance and solicitors for anything creative. I like to use commercial solicitors. And I do always ask my vendors to use commercial solicitors as well. Sometimes they don't. Whenever they don't, it's always made my life difficult. So I always like to use commercial solicitors. With commercial solicitors, they understand options. They understand all the creative ways to do things. They're happy to discuss stuff. With conveyancing solicitors, are again, they're kind of like boxing and it's a tick box exercise for them. And if they don't know where to tick the box, they get confused. And I know it sounds silly, somebody that's really educated sounds confused, but they do get confused and they don't do it correctly. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And then in terms of how you would find these type of deals, for example, have you ever tried to actually go through the estate agents to acquire these deals or is it traditionally direct to vendor? Director vendors the best, but your agents will bring you more deals as well. So now if you have an agent that understands what you're capable of, they're one of your best friends because they'll bring you deals that generally most people... So if you normally when you're working with agents, they won't bring you stuff that works in this way, but if they know you can do it, the stuff that doesn't work for other people, they'll bring to you and see, can you get it over the line? Because for them, something that they can't get a commission on is just wasted. However, if they can work with you and you can still get that over the line, they're still getting a commission. And ultimately, that's what you've got to work out. What is in it for them? And if you can explain that you can get deals over the line that other people can't, they're still earning a commission. Yeah, I always say this to try and explain it to them and to make friends with the agents. I've always said this. I'll tell you what's so frustrating. I don't know if you have this when you got a really good agent, you've got that good connection, you've explained everything, you get some good deals together over the line, and then they move away. They didn't move and you're like, my God, I've lost them. So frustrating that you've got to start the whole process again. What would that number, you can stay in Yeah, that's true. That's true, which I do. What would be your top tips, would you say, speaking to agents on this? Because of course, a lot of agents not going to understand vendor finance. mean, some of them don't even understand rent to rent. So what would be your top tips when you go in and speak to Okay, with agents, I'll say one thing. Agents will never tell you that they don't understand something. So when you go in there and you explain a lease option or render finance and all of these things, they'll never say they don't understand it. What they will say is the vendor doesn't want to do it or the vendor doesn't accept it. They're not happy with it. Reality is something that they don't understand. They won't number one convey it correctly and something that they don't understand and they don't understand how it benefits them, they ain't going to want to do. So, most important thing to do is work out what is it, what's in it for them. So, with a lease option, they're going to get paid late. So, how do you solve that problem? If you go for a BMV offer, they're going to get paid less. How do you solve that problem? If you're to do something like vendor finance, they're going to get paid quite effectively immediately. So, that's fine. If you're to do an exchange with delayed completion, How long is that delay? When are they getting paid? Are they getting paid on exchange or are they getting paid on completion? Now, all of these different strategies that you might go in and discuss with an agent, they're thinking of one thing, when do I get paid? Right? So that's what you need to solve really. You need to work out how do they get paid. So with the BNB, for instance, I'd always say to the agent, look, I'm going to make an offer. It might be lower than other However, anything that you would have made, let's just say that if I was to say the property is marketed at 200 ,000 pounds, I'm offering 150. I will still pay you the difference on your commission between the 150 and 200. So you don't lose out. So you don't need to now try and get somebody that's going to pay you 200 ,000 pounds and go into a bidding war with me. You're still going to get paid the same amount. So rather than you now trying to look for somebody else, just put my offer forward. Yeah, I always say it's an art, it's like an art form speaking to agents. It's a real skill and something that develops over time and certainly confidence is such a thing. And like you said, just to say to the agents, look, you still get your money, so don't worry about it. It's like when I was doing assisted sales and they were, they, know, and I was saying to them, well, we can pay you this time, like in, in a consultation fee, then we could pay you again. And it's just really understanding. what is it that they're looking for? And the majority of the time it's they just wanna get paid as much as they possibly can. And it's building that trust to say, well, this is how we're gonna do it, which is so interesting. And then what would be your top tips then for if you're going direct to vendor, how would you go about this? Is it just the usual way of letters or is there a certain strategy you should use? And then when you actually get in front of the vendor and themselves. what would be a top tip you would use to speak to them and attract When you go direct to vendor, I'd say go with whatever way suits you, whatever you're comfortable with. Some people are great online, some people are great with letters. I do well from networking and letting people know what I do. So everybody is different. I wouldn't say just do it in one way. At the end of the day, deals are everywhere and they come from different avenues. So don't just go for one avenue because if that stops, then all of your leads will stop. always explore different avenues, always let people know what you do. That's probably one of the tips I would say is worth putting out there. Let people know what you do because if people don't know what you do, they're not going to come to you for it. Yeah, exactly. And I can imagine you, for example, at your networking event, because you host a networking event in Stratford, which is fab. And I can imagine you, somebody who didn't know who you were, to stand there and explain maybe about, do you have this problem as a vendor? Do you have this problem? Do you have this problem? Well, this is how we could solve it. And then what you're doing, again, you're not chasing, which is what I said earlier, you're then attracting the owner to then come and speak to you to say, Motto, I need your help. I own this property, how can you help me? How can you buy this from me? And therefore they then come to you. And I think that's such a great way to be. So I think, you know, for example, on socials, if you, you're somebody who's thinking this is a great strategy for you, you know, put posts up to say, this is how, this is what a problem could be. Is this your problem? This is how it could be fixed. Contact me to find out more and then get them to then contact you. I always think that's such a good one because people then feel that always isn't it problem solving. I spoke about this with Sophia Botchway two weeks ago. It's what is the problem? How can we solve the problem? you know, she says instead of calling herself a property investor, she's just a problem solver. And I think that that's such a good outlook to have. It's like, what's your problem? How can we help? I think that's great, great advice and separate question actually to vendor finance because I always on this podcast like to explore all sorts. In terms of your networking events and things, how have you found that? For those people out there who are thinking of starting their own networking events, myself included, I have my own, what would you say would be the best way to really keep the networking events going? Because let's face it, it's so difficult, particularly in school holidays, or to try and attract people to come once and then come again and again. How have you found that as an event host? So, I launched a PPN at the beginning of lockdown. Actually, we launched on the day we got told we're going into lockdown, so probably not the best of times. And to add to that, and I don't think most people would be aware of this, I'm a proper introvert, right? So, when I said I'm going to launch a networking event, a lot of people were quite surprised. It went totally against everything, as My comfort zone is totally outside of my comfort zone to do a networking event. I suppose starting at the beginning of lockdown also helped because it made things harder. We were at a time where we wasn't sure what was going on. So I just had to try whatever, everybody was just trying whatever they could to see what worked, which was in a way a good thing and a blessing for myself because by the time we'd come out of lockdown, a lot of the other networking events had closed down. and they hadn't reopened to the point where when we had launched back in person events, we were one of the very few and we did get good numbers. But we consistently had good speakers. And I think one thing about networking or running or hosting networking events is you've got to make it personal. You've got to make it an extension of you because it is. People will come for the speakers. People will come for the other people that attend. People will also come for you. And depending on who you are as a host and how you are as a host, that's how you should run it. You shouldn't... I looked at many other different hosts and I was like, maybe I should model it like this, maybe I should model it like that. And in the end, I found actually, just be yourself and do things how you do things. And if people like it, they will come. And if they don't, that's not your tribe, that's not your crowds, don't worry about it. And I think that's when I started doing that, it really worked. And yeah, I have to say. it is an extension of me and people that come they come like see that we I'm just very friendly and personal and like with people and the event is very like that it's a very friendly crowd and that's why I think we've done Yeah, it's amazing. And so many people speak about your events as well. So for any listeners who are listening to this, am I right in thinking it is Stratford, isn't it? Yeah. So anyone who's in London or even not, you know, the surrounding area, go and and check it out. And what day, how, like it's once a month. When would it, when is it usually in the month? Right, we're on the second Tuesday of the month. We're both in person and online. So we're one of the only ones that is hybrid. So yeah, you can join us from anywhere in the world as well. that's cool. I love that. That's amazing. And that's such good top tips because I've I obviously do quite a lot of networking events and hosting and I've got actually some really cool collaborations coming up as well, which I can't divulge the information of yet, but the information is coming soon. And yeah, and I think you're absolutely right. I think just be you. Because I always say this, nobody, nobody is you, like literally to anyone and You're right. And actually, I love what you just said there about that. I think when I first started two years ago, I was so conscious of trying to be like everybody else, which I think stems from early childhood. It really does. When you're at school and you want to fit in and you don't want to be the oddball and things like that. And you're like, right, well, how should I do it? This is how they do it. This is how they do their socials. And now I've completely let go of that. Like life is so much more wonderful and so much more free because you're just like, well, this is how I do it. And if you If you don't quite like it, that's okay and that's fine. So I think that's a really good thing that you just said for anyone who wants to start their own networking event, which I know a lot of people do do who ask me about it. Just start perfect later, find your tribe, keep going and consistency would be my key advice I would say to keep consistent, keep doing it and get your, get other people to shout about you. I always think that's a really nice way to do it as well, which I think would be really good. and then my final question then, before we go onto property disasters model would be just going back to vendor finance again, would be, so if somebody was sat getting into property or already in property, I should say, let's say we've got a buy select portfolio or service accommodation or HMOs, whatever it may be. And they're now thinking, right, I need to expand my portfolio. I haven't got a massive pot of cash. So I need to use and recycle the same pot of cash I've already got. What would be your absolute, let's say. top three tips of what you think they should do and use an example of what maybe you did when you first started to get this really off the ground with vendor finance. Okay. So I firstly say, look, vendor finance is a tool. I'll say another thing as well. Although I'm a property investor, don't consider myself firstly as a property investor. So I don't go out looking for property. I go out looking for problems. Now, all I do is solve problems and as a result of what I do, I get property. Right? So I don't, that's why I say I'm actively looking to buy properties, but I am actively looking to solve problems. If off of the back of that, I don't get nothing, that's fine. But majority of the time when it comes to property, by solving these problems, I acquire property. So that's my approach to how I invest in property. Now somebody that's looking to grow their portfolio, whether they've got one or they've got a few, you first need to work out where you are as an investor, because everybody's got a slightly different journey. You're going to have different experience, you're going to have different amount of money or access to capital, and you're going to have different time as in like amount of time that you can put towards your business, your property business. Depending on where you are, you're going to take a slightly different approach. So I would never give the same advice to two different people because they're going to have differences in time, money and expertise. And then it's going to be where do you want to get to? What is it you're trying to achieve? When you know what you want to achieve, you can build a roadmap from where you are to where you want to go. That's what I would advise one as opposed to just saying, this is what you should do, or you should be using vendor finance, or you should be using lease options. Reality is, if you're finding problems, and you're using the tools, whether it be exchange with delayed completion, vendor finance, lease options, whatever the tool is. you should be using them as tools, not going out there and trying to impose that on every deal because that's where people go I think that's great advice. It really, really is great advice. And it's not one shoe fits all. It very much is tailor -made. And it's about really, I always say this, it's about asking lots of questions, lots of open questions, finding out about them and then saying, right, is actually this the best strategy? I always talk on this podcast and I always say, let the strategy choose you. So it's not about, right, I'm going to force vendor finance onto this poor person. It's like, well, actually does vendor finance make the most sense, or is it a lease option or is it exchange with delay completion or is it a rent to rent corporate lease? Like what is it that we think actually could work? And then the strategy will just flow from there. So yeah, I think that's great advice. Thank you so much for that. think, I think that's absolutely brilliant. And then to finish off in style, if we were to think about a property disaster for you, which I'm sure you have so many, I can only imagine the amount that you actually have in a wonderful way. I mean, cause you invest so much. I didn't mean because you're awful, I mean because you invest a lot. That came out so wrong. What story would you like to share with us? Yeah, you are right. There are so many. mean, I'm sure everybody's got a builder experience where everything went wrong. If I go back to vendor finance, I've done one thing wrong. A couple of years back, was buying another block and I was doing a title split and it was supposed to be vendor finance. So this deal was brought to me through somebody at Progressive Academy. So when they bought it, we discussed the deal and said, look, let's initially let's joint venture. It then turned out we weren't going to joint venture. And I'll tell you the reason why we didn't end up doing the joint venture. When we spoke to the vendor on Zoom, we discussed everything about how we wanted to do the deal and it was going to be vendor finance. They'd agreed to everything. They were happy with everything. And I asked them, their solicitors, are they commercial solicitors or are they using a conveyancing solicitor? They were Well, we do business and these are our commercial solicitors. I was like, brilliant. That's perfect. No problem with that. What they did until we was, it's the same firm and they have a conveyancing solicitor in that firm. So we'd agreed everything, done heads up terms. I've sent everything off to solicitors. Both, you really happy. I'm pretty much already celebrating because I'm thinking this couldn't have gone any more smoother because I've done everything. You know what, we're going to have this block of flats, going to be on vendor finance. I'm going to put virtually nothing in. Yippee. And then what happened was get a call back from the vendor saying, our solicitors have advised us not to do this. was like, what do you mean your solicitors have advised you not to do this? Are you using a conveyance solicitor or commercial solicitor? Because a commercial solicitor, as long as they understand what's going on, they usually won't advise like They go, oh yeah, our solicitors that we use, have a conveyance through it. So where it went from, I was going to do this deal and I was going to put virtually nothing in except for legals and stamp duty. I had to stump up a further 40 ,000 pounds to actually do the deal because it was a title fleet. There was substantial amount of money to be made, but the deal wasn't as sweet as it could have been. So yeah, you live and you learn. So what happened in that moment then? So he went to the, he said he actually had a conveyance in Solista who advised him he shouldn't do it. So why did you then have to stump up another 40 grand? What was that for? Okay, so the difference was it was supposed to be, we were going to exchange and complete on the property at the same time. It's very similar to the deal that I'm doing right now. We were going to do the title split and on completion, I was going to refinance the property and pay them off. What happened was because the solicitor turned around and said, you shouldn't do this, would advise you not to do this. I ended up having to get a private investor involved and I, instead of getting vendor finance, the private investor, the money and I needed to put in a deposit. Okay, okay, I see. So because it never ended up being a JV. It never ended up being a JV because the person that bought the deal initially what they said they could do, they were not able to do. And we then worked out also our visions weren't fully aligned. And there were other things, telltale signs, which I thought, you know what, rather than having a long term relationship with somebody that we might not, or we might not see eye to eye, it's better to just nip it in the bud. So I paid them a sourcing fee for the deal. Yeah, nice. Do you know what though? That doesn't sound too much like a property disaster because you still got the deal in the end, which is pretty good. but it cost me a lot more. It was a good deal. It was a good deal. what could have happened is that the Conveyance and Solicitor could have told the person, don't do this. And they just would refuse to even speak to you again. They would be like, no, no, we're not doing it. We've been advised against it. Not done the deal at all. Whereas they still did continue to do it, the deal. Well, the deal itself became a straightforward purchase. for them, because again, on this one, we didn't negotiate on price. I see. So it no longer became vendor finance. It literally just became a straight up deal, which they did agree to. see. Okay. I'm with you. Sorry, I was a bit slow there. Yeah, so it went from being a vendor finance deal to being a normal standard. It was a title split. Look, so we purchased at £380 ,000 and by title splitting it, the value went to £650 So it's not, it wasn't the end of the world in terms of it was still a good deal to do. It just wasn't a vendor finance, which would have made it an amazing deal to do. Yeah, well, you just gotta go again. You'll have to try and beat it with this one that you're currently doing. I love that. And Lotta, I'm sure that lots of people are gonna wanna get in touch with you. They're gonna come to the Stratford event or they're just gonna get in touch with you to have a conversation with you as well. So if people did wanna reach out to you, what is the best way of contacting I'm available on all the social media platforms. The one that I use the most is Facebook or LinkedIn. I am trying to up my game with Instagram, but I just don't understand it fully yet. I will get around to it at some point or another. yeah, yeah, Facebook or LinkedIn is probably the easiest way to get in contact with Perfect, and that's just simply your name if they pop your name Yeah, hopefully there's not too many people with the same name as myself. So maybe that's a plus point for my name. Yeah, that's how I feel as well. I'm like, well, there's not too many of me, so just put me in. That's amazing. And if you want to get in touch with myself, I'm Athena Dobson at underscore official. Girls in Property are on Instagram. If you want to email, it's girlsinpropertypodatgmail .com. And then don't forget, if you want to learn more about the community group, we've got over 50 women now. If you want to learn more about the gala that's happening on Saturday, the 7th of December, just go to www .girlsinproperty .co .uk. And any questions you've got for me, just simply get in touch. If you want to learn more about my mastermind, not mastermind, sorry, my mindset module that I'm offering as a freebie as module one, as part of my seven step blueprint formula, then just DM me the word mindset. Or if you want to talk more about the Gala or community of girls and property, just DM me the word community and we'll have a chat. But Motul, thank you so much for coming on today. It's wonderful to different people from different walks of life, different perspectives, talking about different strategies. So I really appreciate your time. Thank you for today. Thank you for having me, I really enjoyed No problem. Enjoy your Monday, guys. Take care. Bye. Bye.