Unlocking Rent-to-Rent Success in Social Housing with Shelley Yates

Welcome to another episode of Girls in Property! In today’s conversation, Athena is joined by Shelley Yates, who shares her journey into the world of rent-to-rent, focusing on social housing. Shelley opens up about how she rose to become a Senior Investment Partner with the Social Housing Group, and how she has empowered over 200 women to kickstart their property ventures in 2024. 

Shelley’s story is a powerful reminder of how life can transform when you’re clear about your goals. This episode is full of inspiration, practical advice, and fresh perspectives. Tune in now! 

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Transcript

0:03

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. I hope everybody is doing amazing today. I hope it's sunny where you are. I hope you're having a fabulous Monday wherever you may be. So today I would love to introduce you to somebody on this podcast who is an absolute advocate for women in the property industry. She's beautiful, she's fabulous and I'd love to introduce you today to Shelley Yates. Hey Shelley. Hello, hi everyone. I'm so excited for this. I literally just went on my Instagram stories and was like, I'm buzzing to go on the Girls and Property podcast. And yeah, I feel like there's so many things that me and you both do that sort of come together really, really nicely. So yeah, I'm excited. Hi everyone. Yay. And that's what's so wonderful. I love the fact that we're finding all these different people and women now who are like, yes, I'm advocating over here. I'm advocating over here. it's like, right, how can we actually collaborate and come together to really push forward women in the property and construction industry, which is great. Yeah, because I think when I came in, was not that I was scared. I wasn't scared. I wouldn't put it like that, but I almost, we just had a conversation about this. I always was like, where's all the girls? I felt like I've really had to go out there and find them and hunt them down. And so it's nice to be, to finally find the women that are doing this because it is, you know, typically more of a male dominated industry and we're to change that. Aren't we? are, we are definitely. And we just, it's just fascinating. And you meet so many amazing women. meet mums, you meet people internationally, you meet people from all over. So yes, here's to the women. I love that. And I love the energy Shelley as well, fab. So before we kick off today's podcast, can you first of all, please spend this time introducing yourself to everybody who doesn't know you. Maybe tell everybody about what you do within the industry. Maybe something interesting about yourself, like a fun fact, and then we'll take the conversation from Yeah, so I'm Shelly, I am a mum, I'm 32 years old, I'm from Derbyshire, and I have always kind of had this interest in property, you know, just homes under the hammer kind of vibe, who doesn't love that? But yeah, I actually grew up, I've done so many different things, but predominantly when I was younger, I did like dance and performance and that kind of stuff. I've always loved performing and creating. And I love people as well. So I started off in more sales, more sales. And then when I had children, that was when I got more into business, basically because the job didn't support the fact that I was going to have a child and I was no longer convenient for them. And I had no money, had no money. And I was kind of at this point in my life where I was like, okay, what do I actually want? What do I want to be? Like, I feel like I had something. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs think this, there's something that there's an itch that they want to scratch and they can't quite put their finger on it. And I actually started online sales whilst I had my first little girl. And that kind of blew up and that introduced me to the world of social media. Okay. And I did that for sort of four years from that business. I actually started investing into property. So I went sort of down the, the buy to let route. And then I started a bit of rent to rent service accommodation, dip my toe in that, just kind of made an account and started talking to people. Cause I was like, that's the way that you get anywhere in life. So I just started connecting, talking to people. And then I came across a rent to rent strategy that was really sort of unfamiliar with, which was social housing, rent rent, social housing, and started investing into that. And here we are today. So I've kind of got. buy to let portfolio, is across sort of Derbyshire and also in the Northeast as well. I did do essay, but I've actually recently given those up in the process of, of, actually passing one on. And now I mainly focus on sales within property and I'm looking to sort of grow my portfolio this year. and put a social housing lease on the backend. So do a BRR and put a social lease. on the back. I'm just kind of going with the flow. I never ever have a plan. I just have usually a vision that's two years away in my head over there. And I'm like, I'm just gonna follow how I feel and I will get there. So here we are. That's me. I love that. That's fantastic and I love the fact you told the whole story as well. I do want to touch on the fact that we're a very similar age and I can't believe that you've got two children. Like that's so scary for me. Well, I suppose these days, I was 26 when I had my first little girl. I think that's actually deemed quite young now, isn't it? But yeah, I just had to grow up really fast and then I had another one quite close together. So the pressure was on. And I think that really actually made me go for it in business more. I really felt that pressure of having to provide for my family. Not that my husband didn't, he absolutely did. And he's got his own business. He's very successful in that. But I just really wanted, especially having girls, I was like, I really want them to a mum that they can look up to and feel like that they can do anything. And that really inspired me to do the most, I guess. love that and how old are they now? So one has just turned three and the other one is nearly six. So yeah, they're fighting now, they're fighting. How are you finding the summer holidays and trying to do the whole mum juggle thing? Yeah, it's tough, I'm not gonna lie, but we've got some really good support and we're going on holiday actually tomorrow, so they'll occupy them for a couple of weeks. Yeah, it's always a juggle, it's always a juggle, but I do really try now. think, know, earlier on in my business career, I was on my phone 24 seven, because I mean, that's what you've got to do, haven't you? But now I will... put boundaries in place whereby I'm like, right, my phone's going over there on Saturday and Sunday. I actually don't care if I lose money. I want to be with my family whilst I'm young. And so, yeah, I'm trying to find that balance and I'm committed to sort of making sure that I still have that whilst my children are young. So yeah, yeah. that and I love the fact that you're representing like mums as well as being women in property. I think that's so important. And you know, there are so many, I love the fact that you've got two young girls that you're trying to inspire as well and show them that there are other ways to be. So yeah, full credit to you, Shelley. I absolutely love that. Thank you. Hopefully they follow in their own little footsteps, but as long as they're happy, that's something I'm bothered about, to be honest. it. As long as they're happy, that's all that matters. And if you were going to say something that you're celebrating at the moment, what would you be celebrating? there's quite a few. There's quite a few actually, but I think this year I was really in January, I had this idea around helping more females get into property through the business that I work with. And I had this, I actually had this like visualization manifestation, whatever you want to call it of helping 200 girls in 2024 get involved. At the time I had zero. So it was a bit adventurous of me to think like that, had this vision where they were all, we were all stood in our branded jumpers and we had a photo with the branded jumpers on and all obviously being successful throughout the year. And the last event that we did, we got the jumpers, we got the photo and we hit the 200 mark. And I was like, my God, is you know, the tiny little things that you think that actually happened, that was in my head and that happened. So I think that for sure, that definitely. Wow, so you've got a photo with 200 other women and your branded jumpers for your business that you do with a partner and you've got that photo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, we split up. we've got, we have like different, we call it like cohorts. So we do a different intake every maybe quarter. So there's, I wish there was 200 in the photo, but throughout the year we've done, I've helped sort of 200. Yeah, so the latest one, yeah, not everyone was there, unfortunately, but throughout the year we've done 200 and I ordered the jumpers, I made it happen, they got the photo and I was like, yes. And it's just, it's so nice. when that kind of comes to light, you know, so yeah, that was brilliant. you know, I'm really lucky to have the girls that I do in my team and they really do that inspire me every day. For some reason, I just find it a bit lonely sometimes like entrepreneurship. And if you can do it with other people that have that same vision as you or that same drive as you, it just pushes you that little bit further, doesn't it? I'm sure you find a hundred percent. And that's also one of the reasons I set up the girls and property community because entrepreneurship is really lonely. Like it can be. And I don't think people talk about this enough. think people don't realize that when you go from having this full -time corporate life and job with Christmas parties and summer parties, well, if it's a good company and you know, people around you. to suddenly being like on your own and you have to second guess yourself. You've never done something before. There's no one there to sound check something with you. There's no one to hold you accountable. And it can be really isolating and really lonely. And that's why one of the reasons I set up the community was to say, well, actually let's, why are we doing it on our own? Let's band together. Let's be together. don't need to do it on our own. And I love what you said there, Shelley. You said that the other girls inspire you. I have that as well. I love seeing people go from where they were, let's say six months ago to where they are now, even if it's just their confidence, even if it's just that their personality changes for the better and they come out their shell a bit, it's the most wonderful thing to see and it is really inspiring. love that word. So yeah, empowerment, inspirement, that's what, inspirement is that word? Inspiring, that's what we're here to represent. Yeah, it's lovely. you know, a lot of the time you are making them decisions on your own and it's, especially if you're new, like in this world, you're like, is this the right decision? You're like, you know, it's only your decision, isn't it? Like, husband's really good. He'll be like, no, that's a terrible idea. But other than that, you're on your own, aren't you? And so, yeah, I think that's really, really important. Daffy, and also just before I go into my celebration, also this notion about self -belief, because so many times people will question you or you'll get knocked down and someone will say, really? Like, why are you doing that? Or is that the best idea? You have to have unwavering self -belief in what it is that you're here to do, you're here to create what you're meant to do. And I think even as you go through, like even for me sometimes I have to recheck myself. even two years down the line and be like, actually, I need to have self belief in this, that this is the right decision. This is what I'm looking to do. So I don't think that ever really goes away as an entrepreneur either. It's, it's just having that fire in Yeah, and I think I've learned quite quickly as well that it's about who you speak to the idea, like who you speak about the idea to. And it's usually someone who's a lot more experienced than me and they're never gonna turn around and think, I say, think that's a stupid idea. I'm quite lucky in the sense that like my family and my friends, they're very sort of open people. So, I mean, it wouldn't matter anyway, I'd always do what I wanted to do, but I'm luckily I've never been around them kind of people really, or maybe that's a unconscious decision that I make and I don't tend to really deal with those people who have a really small outlook on life. And so I'm always looking bigger, looking forward, looking up. I'm big into like mentorship and I've got quite a few people mentoring me on different levels and I need that, you know, because there is those people, but I'm gonna be honest, they just don't really get to me that much anymore. Yeah, just a lot of work for myself has been, especially this year, I've really tried to develop myself. I've actually got a self -development coach now as well, and she's really whipping me into shape. Yay, I love that. I love that. And that's what I talk all the time about with the Girls and Property community. Like for example, when we were recording this podcast, which was Monday, the 5th of August, tomorrow night on Tuesday, the 6th, I've got the Girls and Prosperity meeting online for the group, which I do every Tuesday, the first Tuesday of every month. And what it's about is literally what you just said, it's about personal development. So I'll bring an expert coach to talk about something to do personal growth, personal development, who you are as a person and a business owner, as opposed to just property, because that's what it's all about. You're not gonna be the best business woman you can be if you're not the best version of yourself. And that's so important to recognize and takes a while, but I love the fact you've got a mentor coach doing that for you. That's brilliant. Yeah, it's probably harder for me than actually doing business, looking into myself. I'm kind of one of those people who's just like, work, work, work through it, which is good, because I'm quite good at working through feeling a certain way, but it's also not that good, because then I don't access it, you know? So that's been the hardest, way harder than any property deal I've ever closed, is working on myself. But I'm starting to see changes, so yeah. think, do you know what? If I could say it, I think I'm exactly the same as you, Shelley, and I think I've worked out why. I think it's because we have to take time to really be honest with ourselves and look within, and almost, you can't lie to yourself in a way, and I think that's the hardest bit, because the only person you can't lie to is yourself, and you're sat there going, you know, maybe I should do this, and on this podcast, people will always know who listen all the time. I do so much self -reflection on this podcast and I speak very openly and very honestly about work -life balance and when it's not balanced and when it is balanced and I do that quite often. But actually that leads me really nicely into my celebration as well because what I'm celebrating is quite hilarious actually. So I decided that I was like, right, Athena, enough's enough. You have to now start looking after yourself, looking after your body, looking after your mental wellbeing. And I was like, okay. So I decided to join David Lloyd's gym, which is hilarious. So, so many people, so I put a story out, whichever, which people might know, talking about the fact that I was like day one of the rest of my life, David Lloyd. And I got so many messages from people about this David Lloyd's, because all these people were messaging me being my God, Athena, like I'm David Lloyd's member. I'm a David Lloyd's member. my God, I'm down the road from you. It was bizarre. They're like, let's have a coworking day. And I'm like, my God, they've all, they've all come out of the woodwork, all these people. But all I can say is I had the most amazing, most amazing day, like a work day where I did like body pump at 9 a I did, I did a different class. Then I did, went in to do admin and then I went for a swim at like four o 'clock. And I had a call in between. had like a brand partnership call earlier in the day. And I was like, this should be what maybe entrepreneurship is meant to be. Like actually living the proof of what I talk about, which is life by design, property lifestyle. And it makes a massive difference to everything. So today, for example, I'll be going back there. Although I've got mentoring calls later today and I've got some other calls, I'm going to go and do a class and then do a call. Like to be able to do that and to know that that's okay is amazing and it's taken me two years to realize I don't have to be chained to my desk, sat in a box room to feel like I'm actually doing what I'm meant to do as an entrepreneur. Yeah, I can go and sit and have a coffee and well tea and sit and then go for a swim and then come back and that's okay. And that's taken me a hell of a long time to get there, like a hell of a long time. So yeah. I'm similar in that way. Like I get bored sat in my office, which is currently my daughter's bedroom. I've actually just had an office built in my garden. It's nearly done now. But staying in the same place is just, yeah, it's depressing, right? It's depressing. And I actually was, I was at David Lloyd last year. I actually canceled my membership because it was so unbelievably expensive. was one of those with the spa in it, that dip tank, like if you need waking up, if you're hungover, you get in that cold dip tank, life has just been, you've just been reborn essentially. I love that. I well you gotta get back to it girl! Come on, get back! I know. Well, I've actually, so it's half office, half gym in my garden now. And I've actually bought a loomie, pod. So I've done my own at home, gym slash work, whatever. But I do go out, I do go out probably two or three days a week to a different coffee shop and just sit there. I just take myself out my environment. yeah, I'm very, you know, you leave the office job to not be in the office, don't you? So to be still sat there all day, it's like, might as well be back at work where I was before. No, never. And honestly, Shelley, that used to be my life. Like literally, and I speak about this on the podcast, that literally used to be my life. used to maybe go to my desk at 7 .45. You'd be lucky, like lucky, if I had got up by 5pm. You'd be lucky. I used to just sit there all day. I used to be a travel con I was a travel consultant, travel agent. So literally, I think, I think it's because that's, I won't, I won't detour too much because I would say I want to talk to you about, about all your bits, but I think psychologically what happened was that constantly I had so many appointments and so many clients coming in that I never stood up. It used to be like a carousel of people, literally. And so I think that it's been ingrained in I did that for seven years. And so it's been ingrained in me for so long that like when you work, don't stand up. You just work constantly over and over and over again. And I talk about this, I do a podcast with my partner, which was so much fun. And he's literally saved my life because he comes up and he goes, have you drank water today? Have you eaten food today? Have you seen the light of day today? I was like, no. So for me, this whole David Lloyd thing is nothing to do with, yeah, look at me, fancy David Lloyd. No, it's to do with where can I go to co -work? It gives me a space to work, gives me a space to swim, gives me a space to do classes, work out and have that work -life balance. So I'm celebrating that. I'm very, very happy. That's so good. Like you say, that's just as important as anything else in business, if not more. So, well done on that one. We love it. We're gonna love it. Shelly, talk to us. So if somebody who's never listened to this podcast before or is just looking to start out in property, what we're gonna be discussing now is kind of, you like, the rent to rent side with social housing as an add -on. So rent to rent, social housing almost. So could we first of all please explain to listeners what rent to rent is and then how you actually acquire them and what you do with the properties and tenants afterwards, please. Yeah, so essentially rent to rent, it's a non -ownership model. So you would find a property or get someone to help you find a property that you would lease from a landlord for a set amount of time. The aim is then to increase your profit on that. So you'll pay the landlord, let's say a thousand pound a month, and you're going to aim to get, let's say 1 ,500 pound a month from that property back and keep that 500 pound for yourself. That's the end goal with it. And so it's got, think it's got quite popular, especially over the last couple of years, because it's a great entry route into property. know when I came in, all I knew about was buy to let, like it was buy a house, renovate it, get a tenant in, there you go. And me being me just did loads of digging, loads of YouTube and loads of stalking everyone in property and came across this model. And I started with service accommodation, which is quite a hands -on model. And then I was my husband, actually, he came across the whole social housing side of things. So rather than leasing from the landlord and then you releasing to like short -term tenants, professionals, that kind of thing, you would then put, you would then get a social housing lease placed on the back end of that. And what's great about it is the social housing provider would then take over a lot of the things that would play about with your profits. voids, maintenance, bills as well would all be covered during the term. And so I really liked that idea of that. Having done sort of the, the, serve more service accommodation route, because I had another business that what I was running pretty much full time. And so I didn't have the time and I was a bit naive going into it, thinking that I would be more of a passive strategy. So when I found this, I was right, okay, perfect, I'm gonna test this one out. And I always like there to be some kind of, I can't really run with anything unless I feel passion or purpose surrounding it, but if I do, then I can run with it 100%. And I really love the whole social aspect of this. And we work with a lot of children that come out of care, women who have fled violence, that kind of thing, and rehome them into more suitable accommodation. I like the fact that my money was going towards that, and I felt like I could really do something with that. So yeah, that's kind of how I got into rent to rent social housing and that's how the setup works. It's not always as easy as what it probably sounds, I do, when I talk about this a lot on my social media, I'm like, people are like, I want to get into social housing. Yes, it's great when you get the lease on the back end. However, it's not always the easiest thing to place. And when you've got a landlord who wants their property let, they're happy with a company let, so rent to rent. you will have other people coming in offering more on that property or being able to offer it immediately. Whereas we have to get the lease secured because I can't say yes to a landlord until I've got the yes from the provider. That side of things is actually quite tricky. Especially since doing some of my own in the Derbyshire area, I actually work with a business at the moment, but I have learned the ropes and doing it on my own and that bit is hard. Once the lease is placed though, it's great. It's great and it's pretty much passive. I've not heard I've not heard from the most recent one that I did in a couple of months and it's just cash flowing now. So yeah, it's great if you want in like passive income basically, but it's not as easy as what, mean, nothing ever is, is it always looks easy on social media, doesn't it? But yeah, essentially that's the model. That's what I work Okay, amazing. So just thinking about this from a the strategy from from logistics perspective. So traditionally, let's just say that you were going to do a rent to rent, HMO for professionals. Typically, you would sign the contract with the landlord, you would take on the property as the tenant, if you like. And then what you would do is you would then obviously rent out on let's call it five beds, so to five different individuals on a professional AST tenancy. for each room. So how does that work with social housing? Is it the same that you just sign a different contract with the social housing provider? What's the end bit? Yeah, that's the same. you'd, you'd re you'd contract again on the other side. So usually what would happen is we'd say, we've got this, this prospective property or we'd work backwards. So we'd be in touch with the provider. They would say, okay, we need X amount of rooms in Nottinghamshire. We need them to be self -contained. For example, if you can find that we'll take it onto lease. So then we will, that will be our search criteria. and we will contract with the landlord and then contract with the provider on the other end. So yeah, there's kind of multiple contracts going on, but we always obviously let the landlord know beforehand, because I've had this question quite a lot as well. Like, does the landlord know that you're putting social tenants in there? And of course, yeah, you have to be upfront and honest about that. I think the stigma is breaking a little bit, you know? I think the immediate thing that comes into people's minds is, they're going to wreck my property, with the lease being so strong and having taken over all aspects of the building. And of course, any damage that does happen to the building, they're in contract to give it back in the same condition that it was given to in the first place. so, yeah, I'm starting to trying to change people's opinion on that because anyone can wreck a property, can't they? I have you seen some Airbnb disasters? I'm sure you've experienced some of that as well. I know I have. gonna say I'm part of those Airbnb disasters and I'm part of those professional HMO disasters. I've got all the stories. You can never tell and sometimes, yeah, of course, of course it's property. If you're in property and you don't have property disaster stories, then that would almost, I'd be like, okay, that doesn't make sense. There's always at least one story. I tell you that the question I get asked most frequently when it comes to rent to rent and it comes to this side of things would be a couple of ones. So the first one would be, why wouldn't the landlord just do it themselves? Why wouldn't they just go to the social housing provider directly? And the second question that I get asked most frequently is people say the agents usually reply, the landlord usually replies, well, isn't that subletting? So first of all, how would you deal with the answer to isn't that subletting? How would you deal with Well, yeah, I think it's that word, isn't it, that everyone hears and just automatically thinks it's illegal. But when you've got a legal contract in place, you can legally sublet that property out, which I that's really why we call it rent to rent, isn't it? So people don't get confused around that whole sublet subject. But yeah, I think really as well, talking about the landlord side of things, I just think establishing trust is the biggest thing, you know? And a lot of landlords have these big portfolios. and maybe they've been running their HMOs for 20 years. They've had enough. They don't wanna deal with individual tenants. They would rather somebody take it off their hands. People can't seem to get their head around that, which I find strange because I've only got a few properties which I own and they already caused me quite a lot of ag. If someone said, I'm gonna take this property off you, I'm actually gonna do it up for you as well. I'm gonna give you full rent for it. That's definitely something that I would consider. And they're not mysterious people that don't exist. There's landlords out there who want the properties taken off their hands, you know, and they want a long lease on it as well, three to five years, especially with HMO and bigger properties. know, the void is the big, the voids are a big thing. And if they know that they can get full, they can get a rental yield from that with no voids, then it gets quite interesting. And they just don't want to, they don't want to go out there and start talking to providers and trying to get a lease. the ease of things. I think that's what this whole strategy is kind of hangs on is the fact that it is kind of done for you and there is less aggravation in it. And yeah, I think that's attractive. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm the same as you, I'm a landlord myself. And if somebody would come to me and be like, right, here we go. In fact, I am probably gonna end up doing it 100 % because I know how it works. Of course, I do it with somebody that I trust, you know, it's gotta work both ways to trust. But why wouldn't you do it? I completely agree with you. One of the things also just to note is, so, Shelley, if we were to talk about first of all, landlords, let's just say, So how would you go about first of all finding these landlords to therefore approach regarding social housing? Where do they exist? What techniques do you use? I'm just massive on social media. Like I, and this is what I teach all my girls, you are never going to meet as many people online as you do in person. The first thing I did when I got into property was make that account, get my specialty. which obviously I kind of fell upon social housing, but I was like, right, I really like this. I believe in this. Let me become an expert in this. Then let me share my expertise with other people. When you then position yourself as the expert and become the expert. people wanna work with you in that particular field, people think about you immediately, they're like, Shelley is the social housing girl, which I am, I guess, they come to me, because I've got specific, I've shown people that I know what I'm talking about, and they come to me, and I'm consistent with my content, and I wouldn't be able to do that otherwise, you know, so I just think you have If you've got a property business or you wanna do rent to rent, go and show people what you're about. Go and talk about what your values are, what your plans are for the future, okay? Show your mistakes. Be a real person and start connecting and talking to people. And you will be so surprised at what you get back. Like on paper, like I'm a saleswoman. I used to work in hair, selling hair products, okay? I've only been doing this for like a couple of years. However, I have made it like mission to be the person to come to about this. And I think it's about really owning that and not giving up on it and you know, trying to stand out. I see people starting their business maybe on social media and maybe posting once a month and say, I don't know how you get landlords to come to you because I'm there. I'm there on their Instagram stories. I'm there on the feed. I'm talking to people in the inbox. I'm sending emails. I've got funnels. And that is really what it takes. conversations, talking to people and getting yourself out there. If you're willing to do that, you will be able to find a landlord who's willing to work with Do ever get people say to you, Shelley, I see you everywhere. I see you everywhere. Do you ever get that? Yeah! Yeah. I get, yeah, a lot of the investor phone calls and stuff that I have, they're like, I've been watching you for like over a year. I'm like, my gosh, remember this post you did about this? And I'm like, no, no, I don't. But, yeah, thanks. So yeah, I think that's all it is. I don't think it's about, I don't even think it's even about being the expert. Really. I think it's about how often you're going to allow people to see showing up and people, know, she's actually, even if I didn't know, even if I wasn't the most knowledgeable person, which I'm not, I'm there. I'm there before anybody else. And that's, I'm just such an advocate for social media. I know it gets a lot of bad sick, but there is a lot of great things that you can do with it as well. Like go and change your own algorithm. Go and follow people that are inspiring, that are doing things that you want to do. Go and connect with the right people and you'll get a good, you'll get goodness back. You know, I unfollowed so many irrelevant celebrities on social media that just made me feel like rubbish about myself and replaced it with education and like cool people that are doing wicked things and you can make it a really good place to be I think don't you? Yeah, I love it. You know I'm a massive advocate for social media. I'm on it basically nearly every day because I love it. And you're right, I just think it just opens so many doors and opportunities. So absolutely, I agree with that. For those who are just starting out, and let's say they either don't have an Instagram page or Facebook page or whatever it is, and they're literally just starting out. Okay, they can start out, maybe they've only got five followers and they've just got to remain consistent. Obviously it's gonna take some time for them to build that up, like naturally, like most things it does. So what's your opinion about things such as letters to landlords? Do you have a thought about Yeah, you know what? I think the more tests you can run, the better, you know, try out, see what works. Like I've done, I obviously do face to face and like meet people in person and that kind of thing. I've never actually done landlord letters, but I was thinking about, cause I was looking to invest in my area. I was thinking about doing some more direct to vendor marketing. And if you test it for long enough, give it a month, go and do that. Okay. let's analyze what I'm getting back out of it. If you're getting some good leads from it, perfect, continue and then build your Instagram as well on top. But I think perform tests in the beginning, you don't know what's gonna work for you, what works for someone else might not work for you. So, and I know people have success with that, right? Do you ever do Yeah, of course. I used to get nearly all of mine through letters. Letters were amazing. They were so good. And you know, I love what you actually made a really good point. So what we used to do is we used to basically have our letters and we used to test out different letters to see which letters gained the most attraction. So you're right. It's all about testing and we tried various techniques and everything. And you know, once I remember we went to someone's house who had kept our letter on their little chalkboard thing. They were an elderly couple, bless them. on their little chalkboard they kept like our letter and it was just there from like over a year ago and they just decided to now call us and I was like that's fascinating that's so interesting so you just never know you never know who's watching you on social media either I've had it before of course where people said hey you know I've been watching you several months listening to the podcast now ready to have a conversation with you so you never know you never know you really and I think that's the really hard thing is because in the beginning, no one reaches out. Like I always say, it's more of a 90 day business, probably more than that. But in the beginning, you have to kind of get comfortable with probably getting no results whatsoever. And knowing that in a year's time, that person who followed you on day one, now wants to work with you because of the way you've committed to your business for the last year. And it's annoying because A lot of people quit in those first six months because they're like, I'm rubbish at this, I'm not getting anything back. And that's normal, that's so normal. I'm not making any money, I'm not turning a profit. neither do most businesses in the first couple of years. And so I think it's about kind of reality checking yourself on that and being like, it's absolutely fine if I'm not getting anything back right now. I'm in the beginning, like when you go to university. Do you expect to get a job on day one of university? No, like you do three years and you actually pay to do that. You know what I mean? Whereas people will do a business of six months and think they're rubbish, they're not, they're literally just no, like it's just that repetition. It's just that kind of that muscle memory, isn't it? Of just them tiny incremental little bits of you that just get better and better until one day, boom, you get that result that you've been waiting for. Exactly. It's like I say, 1 % every day. I've always said this, just do 1 % every day. It's a compound effect and you will eventually get there. And like I say, we've both been there, Shelley. We've both been there where we tried to get our first property and we've started from the beginning and we're constantly being said, no, no, no, no. And then one day you're like, one day you think to yourself, this isn't working, it's never gonna work. And then one day somebody says, yes. But that isn't in the first month or two months or three months. That's it. At least, you know, six months later, five months later, and you're like, finally, finally someone said yes. And the first one's always the hardest one to get because you learn with the first one, you grow with the first one, and then it's like a snowball effect. So you just got to remain consistent. It's about showing up, remaining consistent, believing in yourself and really pushing it forward. That's what I think and say. yeah. one little win, the energy that you go into the next one with, that next phone call or conversation that you have, you just feel like a winner. So you're just like, yes, come on, let's go. Let's go for the next one. It gives you that little bit of fire that you've been waiting for. There is nothing more than I love than that little feeling of, yes. I chase that. I love that. That's why I love sales. That's why I love sales. I love things that you can get that buzz from. And just like working with other women, know. Yes, it's a dopamine. And then when you work with other, like, we both work with, we have this community now, we bring people in. And so I get dopamine from them as well. It's like, yes, no, you've done it, you've done it. And it's like, actually, I actually get more positive when they've done it versus when I've done it. So yeah, it's amazing. Definitely. then if I was going to ask, Shelley, so we spoke about landlords and how we approach landlords and how we find landlords. If I was then going to say, okay, well, how do you actually find social housing companies? How do you go about actually doing that? Again, so I mean, I, so I work with the business that goes out there and secures a lot of leases. So it's not so much what I do. I've got a business partner as well now that is separate to what I'm doing. And I actually more find the landlords and he secures the providers. So he has a big job of going out there and kind of sourcing that and do meetings with them. But a lot of that is social media as well. So LinkedIn, do you use LinkedIn? I never used to use it before, business boys. It's amazing. use LinkedIn, yeah. Yeah. So can again, putting posts out there, talking, searching for providers, emails, phone calls, that kind of thing. Yeah, it's pretty much very similar to sort of going out there and finding landlords, I guess, but you just tweak it slightly, just conversations really. And I'm just very lucky that obviously I work with a business is so experienced in that, that I know kind of what to look for. I've spoken to a lot of people who are very sort of experienced in that field. So they can say, no, I probably wouldn't work with that provider. Or no, I think this would be, you know what I mean? So I've always got those people around me that can give me advice on it because yeah, you always need that, don't you, right? So yeah, I think it's the same again, going out there and just talking to people and finding out, you can actually bring up a list, I think on Google of providers in your area. Go to, I'd go to, that was my job tomorrow. Someone said, you need to secure a social housing provider. I would go and type it in on Google and I would go emailing and calling people and asking if they have a requirement in the area, what sort of buildings they need and sort of narrow it down that way. That would be what I'd do. Yeah, perfect. I love that. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because with the whole rent to rent thing, obviously, it's, as you said, initially, it's not about ownership. It's literally about just actually using, like trading the property and using it for what it is that you require for at that moment. And so if you were to finally talk about kind of, let's go for Shelley, if you were to say the three main benefits of doing the whole rent -to -rent social housing aspect, because I know a lot of people ask me about this, but then if you were also to talk to me about the three main risks involved as well of the whole rent -to -rent structure with this, what would those be, benefits and risks? Yeah. So in terms of benefits, of course you've got the passive nature of it really. So that a lot of the clients that I work with personally, that's what they want. So maybe they've got another business, they want to invest in property, but they don't want to be doing refurb. They don't want to do any of that kind of stuff. They just want a return. So someone who wants more of a passive income, brilliant for those kinds of people. Beneficial for people who are starting out in property as well, because there is potential to not have to invest too much upfront and still get a decent profit from it and not need to upfront 50K worth of whatever. So I think entry level is really good and beneficial on that way. Yeah, I think they're the main two, to be honest. And the fact that I suppose your profit is always hanging in the balance within rent to rent and that kind problem, guess, is sort of eradicated by having the social housing lease on. So any voids that cover bills, cover. So rising bill costs and that kind of stuff is all built into it. So you kind of have that security of knowing that you know what you're going to get each month rather than, I don't know what I'm going to get each month. As we both have experienced with service accommodation, I always use that as an example because it's the only other one that I've sort of done. you know, I'll be up here one month and I'm like, woohoo, this is amazing. Let me take on 10 million more essays. And then the next month I'm like, like winter months, tumbleweed. So it's nice to have that steady income. So I'd say that is more beneficial. And then the landlord side of things, just, yeah, like a long lease, guaranteed income, that kind of thing for landlords as well. The biggest thing I think risk -wise is, of course, you're kind of at the mercy of that provider. So in a sense, you know, they've got to do whatever they said they're going to do inside the contract. Again, we tend to work with like good, providers, government, government providers. And so it strengthens that even more. You know, even with the current government changing over, doesn't really make that much of difference. They've still got to increase the supply of social housing. So we know the strength and that's really good, but yeah, you could have the rug pulled from underneath you. think that would be. the biggest risk and you'd have to go out there and try and get that released by another provider or change your strategy, I guess. That would be the biggest problem. And if you were to use the same provider, say for example, I went out in Derby and did 20 and they were all under the same provider and that provider went bust overnight, I would probably be pulling my hair out. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I've actually seen that happen before. I've seen that happen before. one of my mentors actually spoke about it quite openly and I thought it's really good to sort of share that because you know nothing is ever risk free and property is it and I think we all know that but yeah I think that would be the biggest thing having to get that released especially if you've got a big portfolio and you've got it all on the same provider for sure. I love that. So therefore if you were going to say, and it might be similar to what you've just mentioned, but if you were therefore going to say to somebody who would want to start off in rent -to -rent social housing or is looking to explore it, doesn't even need to be starting out, what would be the biggest takeaway or lesson you would like to give them going forward on their journey? Yeah, I would say you always need more providers than what you think you do. And always work, always work backwards from what they want. Because you'll save a lot of time doing that. we haven't we on the front foot then sort of talk to them and say, what is it you're looking for? Like we had someone say once in Scotland the other day, was like, gosh, I've literally got no contacts in Scotland. Let me go and find some contacts in Scotland. I'm looking for thousands of beds in Scotland. So Yeah, it's always about finding out what you need to know that you're not wasting time finding properties that in the area, there's no social requirement for them. So I'd also say try and focus in on an area. I mean, a lot of providers do cover the whole of the UK, but someone more specific. So if you get a bit more specific yourself, like I do Derbyshire mainly, the business that I work with, they do all over the UK, but myself, I work predominantly in Derbyshire. I know the area, I know the good areas to invest in all that kind of stuff and building up my contacts between myself and my business partner in the Midlands area and getting as many as we possibly can so we know there is a higher chance that we can secure that lease when we get a property comes up or a landlord that says, yeah, I'm willing to work with you. I love that such great advice as well really really good advice and then what I also love is the fact we were speaking earlier we touched on it is that your big thing when you first started out in this and you said it before you came on the podcast was about this idea that You joined kind of this team and you're like, where are all the women? Where are we? So what is it you're doing at the moment? Would you say that you that really fills your cup to? Advocate for women in the property industry. How are you finding I love it. So I had a business before I did property and it was very female dominated. So I worked in network marketing, so online sales basically. Absolutely loved it. Loved, we used to do trips away. We'd just support each other. It was so, so good, hard, hard industry, but it was absolutely amazing. And I felt like when I came, when I then came into property, I was like, no, my team's gone. Where are my girls gone? It was a bit, it was weird actually. I was actually quite sad about it. I still stay in touch with some of the girls that I used to work with. And I kind of mourn that side of my business. And then when I came into property, I was an investor, I invested into Rent2Rent. And then luckily Jack, who owns a social housing group, he kind of said, well, I'm kind of looking for people to come and work with me. And I was like, that's great, because I want to get more into this strategy. And he said, we can come and pass on our deals for me. I thought, yeah, this is perfect opportunity. On coming in, I went to a couple of site visits and stuff like that. And I was like, where are the girls? I was like looking through the team chat, like, it'd nice to connect with some of the girls in the team. He was like, yeah, yeah, there isn't really any girls. I was like, right, okay, well that needs to change because I know so many females that want to get into property just exactly like I did basically. I was looking around for an entry point. And then I basically said to Jack, like, can we, can we do something where we bring more girls in? And he was absolutely go and do it then. So it's like, perfect. You let me do the rest. So I did. And so we've grown the team now this year, which is absolutely just beyond everything that I imagined it to be. And yeah, I just think there's just not enough of that female community around in property. I loved it when it came across your page. I'm really always, when I see a girl in property, I'm like, It's just nice, isn't it? It's just more relatable. And I just like doing things as a team. I just think winning together is just so much more powerful, so much more enjoyable than doing it on your own. So yeah, I just, I absolutely love that side of the business and probably continue to grow it. I mean, we've got a lot of partners now, but there's always room for more, I'm sure. So yeah, I don't even know how next year is gonna go. I need to get my manifestation hat on, I think, and think about what's gonna in store for 2025. I love that and I love everything you just said. Yeah, it's amazing. Well, I obviously launched the Girls and Property Community just after the retreat that I hosted for 82 women and the girls were asking me for it. So I think I launched, I don't remember the exact date. I want to say that I actually launched the community just before June. I think it was like literally just before June. should, yeah, I should have the date, but I don't have it off the top of my head. It's just before June and it's got 64 members in it now. Yeah, and we're on the 5th of August. So it's been a whirlwind. It really has been a whirlwind. And now what's amazing is I get approached by so many, literally so many people, not just women and men who want to come on the podcast as well. They're like, can I come on your podcast? And I'm like, wow, like this is all changing. I've got, of course, the gala for which is coming up in December, which I know you're coming to, which is so exciting. And that's gonna be hosting. really, in one my girls' clothes. Yeah, I know and I love that and I really hope to at least get like 100 there but I'm gonna estimate 80 to 100 I think is fair. yeah, it's just to bring women out of their comfort zone and into it be like, come on girls, like, let's go, let's rock it. And yeah, I'm here for it, Shelley. I'm here for us both advocating in our own way to get more women to be confident and to do this and to think, do you know what, I can do this. And do you know what, Shelley, I get so many messages. from women about this podcast who just come out of the woodwork and they're like, hi, Athena, I've been listening to every single episode. You've made me believe I can actually get into this and do this. And I'm like, my God. So if you're listening to this and you send me those messages, this episode is for you, come and join us. Like it's a wonderful world to be It's so nice when you kind of get that reassurance for everything you've done. It is sending the right message, the people that you want to send it to. You know what I mean? Them little messages that you get are just amazing. It makes you, gives you the, know, okay, how do I make this bigger? How do I go more? You know, it really does. And I think that's, I think it's great. I the podcast is amazing as Yeah. And you know, so many guys now as well, send me such wonderful messages and they totally get it. They're like, Athena, my love and probably for you, Shelley, you know, they're both like, you know, love what you've created, love that you've created this space. And as I, and I repeat once again, it's never been about segregation, never, never. It's not about segregating the men. It's about empowering women, which is a completely different topic. And it's so wonderful. And what's funny is somebody I've been asked to either host a couple of panels coming or actually be on the panel for a couple of events coming up. And what was really interesting was they were saying things to me such as, can you talk about women in the industry and that type of thing. And I was like, yes, but no. Like I'm also a person who has a lot of experience in property in this field. And I have a lot that I can actually educate people on first and foremost, number one, but just by me being on your panel, just by me being there is what you're actually representing a woman on the stage. I don't need to then talk about me being a woman. People know I'm a woman. I want to talk about service accommodation, HMOs, buy -to -lets, lease options. I want to talk about property. That's what I'm here to talk about. And so that's a really interesting conversation as well about them understanding that. So yeah, I think we're opening barriers here. This is good. it's a fine line. Yeah, it's that fine line. You don't ever want to feel like you're saying, it's only about women. It's not that's not the message is it? and then you don't want to you don't want to not have that conversation with men as well. It's really, really hard. makes you look like you're some kind of activist, which you're not. But you're just you just you just have this pull to help other people like you. Like I'm really, you know, like mums and stuff that feel like they don't have a way into property. I'm You do, because I've done it and I want to share that message. You know what I mean? it's, it's never been about not like, let's, let's leave the men over there. Let's bring the women over here. When we do our events and stuff, we bring the girls and the boys together. Cause I think boys, like men and female have completely different qualities. And I think that should be celebrated as well. You know what I mean? Like women have this feminine, the way about them in business. And I think there's tapping into that so important versus men who tend to be like more logical and stuff. we actually go together really well as well. Absolutely, and I love that and you're right. We all bring different qualities as it were I think what I'm looking to create is just a safe place for women to be seen and heard I think that's that's what I really want to do. I want to enable those who don't feel confident enough yet to Be in a mixed room or a mixed environment They can come and have that safe place to feel that anything they want to talk about won't be judged won't be Dismissed it'll be listened to and I think that's so important for everybody So important. But yeah, so yay to us. Amazing! Yay! Let's see where we are at next year. I know, I know. Do you know, I always think to myself, do you ever look back, by the way, do you ever look back and just reflect on where you were this time last year and think, my God. Yeah, I do, especially a couple of years ago, because I had, I built my business and throughout like the crazy time that was 2020, we actually did really, really well. Because I was so new to business, I didn't realize that you can go from up here to down here really, really quickly with not very much notice. And that did happen to me. A business wasn't quite doing well, not doing anywhere near what it didn't do before. And that was a massive like reality for me and it always keeps me motivated to keep going because I know that not everything's gonna run smoothly all the time. But when I look back to two years ago and I was in that place of total confusion and not knowing how this property thing was gonna manifest, I now have so much more clarity on it, but it does take a couple of years, right, doesn't it? You have to do that exploring. And do you know what? I don't think it actually ever stops, if I'm honest with you. It really doesn't. Even when you're two, three years in, you still, because you always want to take it to the next level and the next level, there's always then new barriers that you come up against or new hurdles. And then you got to go, you just got to keep growing and you just got to keep searching and going, and you become different people as well, Shelley. Like I'm a different person to the person I was a year ago completely. And I've got no doubt that we'll be different people. a year from now, which is so wonderful. And, you know, it's just, it's just about being, just allowing the journey to happen as well and not rushing it and thinking, yeah, like we got this, we're going to be just fine. yeah, 100%. And like you say, we've got some good people around us and I'm sure that will help us reach that part of it, know, for sure. Yay! And then just before we finish up this podcast, could you please tell us my favourite bit, a property disaster that you might have encountered recently? I've got a few, but you know what? It's not really a disaster, but it's something that I have realised within property. just like everything's glamourised online, I bought this property, I pulled a million pound back out of it, all this jazz, which I'm sure people do and that's great. I, at the moment, like we were talking about growing, I'm really looking towards buying this year, raising investor capital, that kind of thing, to purchase and pull money back out. That's really scary to me, but it's the next step. I have struggled to find a deal and I was actually speaking to one of our mentors about this and he was like, look, don't rush it. Get the blinkers on because it's so easy to be like, they're finding deals here. They're finding deals here. It's only a deal when it's a deal. And I felt like I've been going slow in that sense because I've struggled to juggle all the other stuff that I've been going on. My real aim is to build that portfolio and I've not, well, I've actually put an offering on something this morning, which is perfect, absolutely perfect for what I want. And I'm eagerly looking at my emails to see if they've replied, which they haven't yet, to see if it's been accepted, but it's been really hard because I've not really had that much. I'm not a numbers person. I'm not a spreadsheet person, which you need to be writing property. Our business partner does a lot of that, sort of working out the deal steps and whatever. And I found that bit really hard. I found that hard because it's like, why are they getting a deal? Why are they, how are they, how are they doing that? And I'm not, you know, it's that constant comparison, which I know we shouldn't do, but it's not that it was a disaster, but it's just one of them things that I've thought, you know what, actually I'm right. I can just take my time with this. I don't have to do something yesterday. I can just wait until something comes up that's right for me. And that's been a bit of a lesson actually, cause you see people doing. these massive scale property developments. I'm not there yet. Like I'm not the most knowledgeable person in property. I would not pretend to be like I'm more of a saleswoman, a social media expert, if you like. And I've had to learn this along the way. And so, yeah, I think that's a lesson, if you like, I've taken away in the last few months for sure. How about you? Tell me one of yours. my god. What have I got? do you know what? Here we go. A service accommodation, not disaster, but annoyance as it were. So obviously we've just hit summer months in Bournemouth, which is heaving. The diary is fully booked. We are good to go. We've got like, and it's doing really well. We've got like a seven night booking, then a 14 night booking, then a seven night booking, which is great. It's exactly what I wanted it to However, however, just before the start of the summer holidays, the linen provider that has been providing us linen just decided overnight, well, no, that's not true. They basically had to shut down. So the person who was providing our linen is now no longer providing our linen in Bournemouth. people do business in very different ways. They gave us no notice whatsoever. They literally just told us, this isn't happening. So this happened to me the first weekend of summer, and this was in July, and literally, rather than me going and having a day on a Saturday to go and enjoy myself in the sunshine, I was like, well, we've got a guest checking in at three o 'clock, at 3 p today, and it was about 11 p sorry, 11 a and I said to the linen provider, can you provide linen for today? We've got a guest checking in at 3 p it's 11 a and they're like, no, we're not providing the linen. I'm like, what do mean you're not providing the linen? We have a guest checking in. So, what I had to do was I literally, and by the way, we have, and people who are service accommodation providers, you will listen to this and appreciate what I'm about to say. We have super king beds in the apartments. Barely anybody. No, nobody provides super kings. So I went to three different stores. Definitely, definitely was saying a couple of swear words to myself as I'm driving went to three different shops The answer to the question by the way for all providers Argos Argos do super king bedding So if anybody wants to know that Argos, so I ended up in Argos it's not just between that. Yeah, but hold on. So they only had one super king bed in one of the Argos's and there are two super king beds. So I had to go to one Argos to pick up the first super king set and then I had to drive all the way to a different Argos to pick up the different super kings I set. And you know what's really interesting? It's so funny. I often think to myself, should I be like recording myself doing this for social media? And I never do because I think Because I think I'm in the moment getting so angry that I think, no, I'm not gonna show my face right now. But I think to myself, God, that would have been gold to have recorded me doing that. just know that on one of the weekends, I literally drove to three different stores, then went to Argos, which was the fourth one, picked up the first super king size, then had to drive all the way to the other one. I start, so anyway, it worked out fine. They had to check in at four instead of three because I was as lay with the cleaners and everything. They were fine, but we did manage to get them in. And then the second notion from that was then, yeah, but then Shelley, then the question comes, okay, now you've got them in, everything's fine. Now what do you do to clean those linen, that linen? Now what? We've now got another guest checking in in three days time. We've now got to get another set, which is going to cost. another however much it costs. Okay, now we've got two sets. Where are we going to clean it? And the cleaners are like, I'm not cleaning it at my house. And I'm thinking, well, I don't have the capacity to clean it at my house. So you then have to go on the search for a linen provider who will just do a simple wash, press, et cetera. So then you've got to the whole motion again. So linen is the bane of my life for service accommodation, literally. They're these little things that people don't think about, isn't Ugh, honestly, I have so many. I have so many stories. Yeah. in the end, got the linen. Did they have a good stay? Did they enjoy the linen? the lovely stay. Five stars. Five star review. Wow, perfect, there we go, it's all worth it then. I know and I love that you were so open talking about deals and things Shelley and I just want to say I agree with you don't focus on what anybody else is doing on social media for all the listeners like just do you nobody is you just keep calm keep collected and you're right a deal is not a deal anyone can show it's a deal but if it's not a deal it's not a deal so just remain focused and then Shelley I'm sure that loads of people are going to want to get in touch with you find out more about social housing and rent to rent so if people want to do that where can they find you So I am on mostly TikTok and Instagram as Yates Property Solutions. That's me. And I have got a little tick now. I'm famous. No, I'm joking. Yeah. I got the tick, you know what? Because I actually had some fake accounts made. So I had to do that. I deal with investors and stuff. So it was kind of, that was pretty scary. So yeah, my Instagram has got a blue tick. I have to pay for the tick. Yeah. Yay, you've made I know. Yeah, I know. I always said, I'm not going to be that person that gets a tick, but it kind of, I kind of had to for that reason. So yeah, look out for the tick because that will be actually me. Perfect. And if you want to find me, I'm Athena Dobson, underscore official. are girls in property on Instagram. If you want to email, we're girls in property pod at gmail .com. And then don't forget, we've got the girls and property community group. Do come and join. If you want more information, just DM me the word community. And then we have got the gala as well. The Christmas gala happening on Saturday, the 7th of December. Shelley, I know you're going to be there, which is exciting. So yes, everyone come and yay. So everyone come and join, let's have a party, let's have some fun, let's represent women and just have fun, which is what it's all about. And then lastly, a couple of people have been asking me about this recently and I have still got it. I offer now a free module all around mindset for anyone starting out in property or who wants to improve their mindset. So just DM me the word mindset and I'll send that to you completely free of charge. I've got a couple of worksheets and workbooks in there and it's basically recorded content of me teaching you and having fun with you. So just let me know and DM me. But yeah, Shelley, thank you so much for all of your time today. Really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. I've really, really enjoyed it. And I'm sure we'll catch up again. Well, I'll see you at Christmas, won't I? Absolutely. I'll see you at Christmas. Enjoy your Monday, guys. Thank you for listening and speak to you soon. Bye.