The Psychology of Perfectionism: Harnessing it for Success in Your Business with Sanela Lukanovic

In today's episode of the Girls in Property Podcast, Athena is joined by self-development coach Sanela Lukanovic for an insightful discussion on perfectionism and its impact on entrepreneurs and property investors. Together, they explore the various facets of perfectionism, highlighting how its definition can vary from person to person.

Athena and Sanela dive into how perfectionism can either drive us forward or hold us back in our personal and professional journeys. They also touch on the roots of perfectionism, examining how early childhood experiences can shape our views and influence our future entrepreneurial paths.

As a fellow coach, Sanela acknowledges Athena's expertise, leading to a deep conversation on how understanding perfectionism can benefit individuals at different stages of their journeys.

What does even mean to be a perfectionist? Join us for another candid and honest conversation with Athena and her guests to discover if you identify with this trait and whether it serves as a burden or a catalyst for your own growth. Enjoy! 

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Transcript

0:02

Good morning, everyone. Happy Monday and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. Today, I have someone very interesting I'd love you to introduce you to. Something a bit different today, looking again at the wider picture within property, business, and taking a more holistic approach to having a look at us as entrepreneurs in general, and talking all about perfectionism today and how we actually cope with that within our businesses. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce you to Sinela Lukanovic. Hi, Sinela. Hello, hello. it's so lovely, lovely to be here. So yeah. coming. I've wanted to get somebody on this podcast to talk about sort of the psychology around how we feel within our businesses for so long, because as I've mentioned to you before, and a lot of the listeners will know because they know my personality, I am a perfectionist and I like everything to be just right. And I get really frustrated when it's not. So today I think it's going to be a really fun podcast. fabulous, so I'm a recovering perfectionist so everything that I have learned about perfectionism and has come through my personal experience I kind of hit that wall where perfectionism started to be a hindrance to everything that I wanted more of in life. to being braver with my business, to being more connected, more authentic. I have an ideal with it. I love how you put it. How do we cope with it? How do we deal with it on a daily basis? How do we manage it in everything that we do, especially in our businesses? So I'm delighted that two perfectionists have come together to speak about perfectionism. That's going to be, that must be good. I love it. Fabulous. So you've already touched a little bit about yourself, but what I love everybody who is listening to today's podcast to hear from you would be, first of all, can you please introduce yourself, maybe tell everybody about where you started, how you even came to sort of the career path that you did and where you're at at this moment in time. And we'll sort of take the conversation from there. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So I'm a transformational leadership and life coach. That essentially means that I deal with a person, not the problem when I coach people. And I coach people who want more courage, more authenticity and more purpose in their lives. I love working with women because we have unique challenges that we have to face. Perfectionism being pretty much, you know, very much kind of center of that for most of us. What else? I am a founder of SelfDom, which is a self -development gym. I call it a self -development gym, which is where people can, who want to grow, who want to discover the essence of self. So SelfDom means the essence of oneself. And I am very passionate and I believe that part of our development as adults is to find and to rediscover that essence and then share that essence in our life, in our businesses, because that is when we get that sense of thriving or fulfillment. So that's my passion. So the self -dome is that kind of place of a little haven for self -development enthusiasts. Wow, that's amazing! Yeah. I love that. It's my little passion. You asked me where I came, know, how I started, how I came into this. So I came via management consulting. So like you, I was in a very kind of high flying career, very good career, kind of corporate world, corporate career. And I, it was business transformation and that was fun and exciting, but I always liked people more and I always wanted to work on the people side of things. So even in consulting, I worked with change. and then when I discovered coaching, I was like, yeah, that's what I'm going to do. I transitioned slowly by, know, getting trained while I was still working, getting clients. So kind of, know, like most of us do, I think you have that in your, in your property business where people. are still working and figuring their ways to transition. So I essentially did the same because we have to eat whilst we are chasing our dreams as well. that's probably enough I would imagine. Is there anything? Yeah. That's incredible and no, I love that and I love, I'm sure you're the same in the way that it's about seeing those clients of yours transform as well. I'm sure you've seen it over a period of time where you've watched someone, let's say go from having it where perfectionism was overtaking their life and almost preventing them from even starting because it wasn't that bit perfect to then actually letting that go. yeah. flying and you being a part of that transformation, I bet it's so rewarding for you. It's amazing. think it's when we realize that the real change, the sustainable change happens when we change from within and we work with that. That's the transformational element of coaching. you go inside and figure out, you know, once you know stuff, like once you know what you need to do and you are not doing it or not doing it to the potential that... that would take you to the next level, then there is time to kind of go inside. And that is beautiful. I mean, I'm blown by my clients. Like I learned from them. I'm privileged to create that space for them. It's just coaching being that for other people is my calling. That for sure. It's not a job. So yeah. That's beautiful, that's absolutely beautiful. And then in terms of something that you're celebrating at this moment, what would you be celebrating? First of all, I love that you asked that question. We do not ask that question often enough and I'm guilty of that. Yeah, you how many times do you finish something and you kind of say, next thing without celebrating. So I love that question. It's beautiful. So kind of on a personal level today, today, I'm celebrating that my son has returned home from his first festival. So we had like five days of first time that he'd been away and then just having him home. I'm, you know, lots of hugs and lots of connections. So I'm looking forward to more of that in, you this afternoon. And the professional level, I've just came out of two days of training, coaching training where I am doing, I'm adding a new modality for my work, which is working with a body and shifting. using the body to shift all the blocks that we accumulate over years. And I was blown away by the tools that I have learned. I'm kind of celebrating that I took the plunge because it took, you know, that's a training I wanted to do for years, you know, but it's expensive and it's kind of like, you know, a big commitment. So I'm celebrating that I gave that myself and that I'm going to be doing that for my clients because it was so useful for me. So most of what I do, it's like I experienced it first and I say, my God, that is amazing. How do I bring that to my clients? I'm sure you do similar things. Like we constantly evolve as professionals. So I would celebrate that. How about you? Yeah. And by the way, just before I move on to what I'm celebrating, that's what it's all about as well. And I love the fact that you just said what you're celebrating effectively is the fact that you invested in yourself and your further development and your further learning. I always say this to so many of the listeners, the best investment you can ever make is in yourself. It really is. And although it's daunting and although it's a very, very scary thing to do when you have bills to pay, children to feed, Mm. Yes? Mm. must, must first of all start with yourself and this idea of putting an oxygen mask on yourself before putting it on others. And I love the fact that you celebrated that. So yay, and passing on your wisdom to others. So yay. I love that. And I was thinking about what I'm celebrating at the moment and actually it's Olympic season at the moment as we know. And so I thought, right, what do I want to celebrate? And actually my celebration today is taking a bit of a bigger view of things as opposed to just myself, which is I've been reading so many stats recently about the Olympics. And one of the greatest stats that I read was that it's the first time in years and years that it has been a 50 -50 split between female and male athletes competing, which is massive, massive for the athletic industry sector. And I read that stat and actually I'm just gonna grab my phone. I'm just getting my phone out here just because I took a screenshot of something that I thought was so interesting. So it says here equality at the Olympics. So in 1990, only the share of female athletes was only 2 .2 % in 1900. In 1964, it was 13 .2%. And then in 2024, it was 50%. So it's mad and it says here, the stat says it took 124 years to reach this basic fairness, which is mad, absolutely mad. And so I want to celebrate all the female athletes who have just been absolutely incredible, inspiring. They're gorgeous as well and just so formidable. And it makes me want to be fitter. It makes me want to think, yes. Let's all be like really fit and healthy together and just celebrating women fairness and their success today, which is great. love that. Absolutely love that. And when I go to the gym tomorrow with my little group, I'm going to embrace that. I'm going to embrace that celebration. Beautiful. to the gym today. I've got a body pump class and I'm just going to think, I'm just going to think, God, let's lift these weights like an athlete. Come on. embody your inner Olympian. Yes, yes, even though it's very difficult, but yes. So, Sedela, let's crack on with today's podcast, which is really about the idea and notion of perfectionism, because I know so many listeners, including myself, will nod along and go, yes, I'm a perfectionist. And quite frankly, I don't think I've ever met an entrepreneur or business woman or man who is not a perfectionist because it's our baby, it's what we want to grow, it's what we want to develop. But I want to really understand, first of all, where perfectionism comes from, why are we the way we are from a psychological point of view? And really delve into that, I to have like a juicy conversation with you today. And then how it can either benefit us in business, but how it can hinder us as well and being really conscious of it going forward. So where do you want to start? Because I know you even said that you'd listened to some of my podcast before and you're like, Athena, you're a clear perfectionist. I'm happy to be your guinea pig. I'm happy to be an example for others. So feel free to just sort of maneuver the conversation and I'm happy to follow. well, let's see. Let's see where it goes. I love that you're a game for all of that. And I did listen to your either five or six mistakes you've made. That is the one that I listened to. Yeah, so that that so we can we can kind of pull that in. So, yeah, I let's let's do all of that. Let's do all of that. So let's kind of Good to the beginning. So let me share a little bit of my story because I'm definitely a recovering perfectionist and what essentially, and I, like you, I have proudly said many times, I'm a perfectionist. And what we are saying by that, what I was saying, what you're saying is that essentially like, you know, I'm somebody who will do the job right. Okay, so I put... I put my, it's not just that I put my effort, I do job well. Like you can trust me, right? I value my work and I do it well. But perfectionism is not that, When perfectionism is kind of looking outside of ourselves and trying to get validation for what we are doing from the outside. So when we have this perfectionism mindset or perfectionism in the work that I was trained in, which is with Brené Brown, who is the researcher in Malanability and Shame and perfectionism is one of the things, is that when we have perfectionism armor on, we are actually guessing what the world wants from us. How do you want me to be? Who do I need to show up? How do I, you know, what, how do I need to sound? How do I need to dress? How do I need to, you know, how do I need to do everything in order for you to perceive me as somebody worthy of working with me, with you? Does it make sense? Very interesting, really interesting. I like that. I like that. okay so so it's in a sense like we we are we are trying to show our best selves, but seeking the information from the outside. But what we are confusing, like when we say, you know, all loads of entrepreneurs say we are perfectionists, is that, you know, there is a massive difference between us being, having a perfectionist mindset and us being, you know, us doing our best work, us seeking for excellence. And the difference is in that, that when I'm seeking excellence, when I'm doing my best to, let's say, prepare for this podcast, to come up here and share something of value to your audience, I am, you know, I am, if I make a mistake, if I lose, you know, train of thought, if I say something and then correct myself, and I'm coming from a perfectionist mindset. my perfectionism, little perfectionist is going to be super uncomfortable and she's going to be zooming in and kind of looking at that with a critical eye. And when I later remember our podcast, I will not remember like your smiley face and like, you know, I will not remember that we actually had a good conversation. All I would be thinking about is that moment when I made a mistake. Yeah. And that is when I'm in that perfectionism mindset. a different, like what we are trying to say, like, this growth mindset that I am going to put my best effort. That's all I can, you know, all I can, I'll prepare myself. I'll come on time. I'll have, you you know, we'll do all of these things. And then if things don't go to plan and things never go to plan, especially in businesses, like, you know, have you ever done a property, anything that went from A to Z in a like, you know, straight line? No. I've never done anything in life worth doing in that straight line. It just sort of zigzaggy like a little, you know, whirling, going around and then coming to destination. But I can accept that. I can learn from that. I can sit with it and say, okay, so it's interesting that I, you know, this is what happened there. Can I improve on something? I can see the whole, and I can look at it from a perspective of... being of improving, right? So it's a very, very different, there is a massive difference between being a perfectionist and being somebody who executes things to the highest standard possible. really like that. And I like the way that you have explained that because I'm trying to put it, I'm trying to almost think of my own examples of that as well. And I think what you're trying to explain and correct me if I'm wrong, of course, is the notion of, for example, let's say that I was to launch a product and instead of, instead of taking the time to think of all the things that went right with the launch of that particular product and all the positive feedback that came with it and all the people that did sign up to the launch of the product. What I would be mainly focusing on is everything that didn't go well and why others didn't sign up instead of focusing on the rest. And so therefore you're in this perfection and mindset, which can actually be a negative thing as opposed to cultivating a growth mindset, which is, okay, great. These people signed up. What did I learn from this? How can I improve next time? And did I... Mm. knowing that I did my best and how can I do even better next time? And having a shift in that mindset that one is detrimental and hinders you, it makes you feel like rubbish, it makes you stand still. And then a growth mindset that makes you grow, develop and go again. And I think that's what you're trying to explain there. Is that right? 100 percent, 100 percent. it's that feeling when something goes wrong, when you're, when it didn't come to things there. So when perfectionist is planning a product launch, perfectionist plans with these expectations that are way over. They're often very, very unrealistic. because we are comparing ourselves, even when we are starting, a perfectionist is comparing herself to somebody who is much, much further down in their journey. So they expect, and they could be implicit or explicit, like we may not even articulate to ourselves that that's actually what we are expecting. And our rational brain could be, of course I know I can't, you know, I can't make a... I can't do a launch like Mary Forleo does because she's been doing it for 20 years. But, I just started. I kind of get that here. But our perfectionist doesn't get that. So there is something about expectations that we set for ourselves that are very unrealistic. And then at that moment when things don't go perfectly to plan, Because in the perfectionist's mind, it's all or nothing thinking. know, either everything goes right or nothing goes right. So any piece that is not missing from that picture or is not perfectly coloured in, and so the picture is not as we expected, we kind of go, wow, that's not right. We don't see the rest of the picture. And then that feeling what you were describing, like, you we feel rubbish about ourselves. We feel rubbish about ourselves because at the bottom of perfectionism or behind this perfectionism is shame. Hmm. It's a feeling of I am not enough. Yeah, that's so powerful. take perfectionism. you know, when I talked to, when I worked with perfectionists and when I, you know, this was a kind of a major, a hard moment for me. We don't take perfectionism because we think we are perfect. You know, and therefore like here we are, like, you know, we are just gonna do everything perfectly. It's not, we take it on, it's a protective mechanism. We take it on because we know that we are not. We know that we are not, nobody is perfect, right? Nobody can execute anything perfectly. Nobody can build a business, you know, in a kind of this straight ideal line that, you know, we hear people talk about once they have made it. So, so that's the key. you know, perfection is not something behind that perfectionism is a sense of not enoughness. And that is... what gets triggered when things don't work out. I love that. And I'm actually going to go a bit deeper with this because I think let's, you know, let's have a juicy podcast. Cause I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated to understand it further than this. So of course, for example, and other listeners might be very similar to me. So it's this notion of two things. One, it's all to do with how we feel about ourselves. Like, for example, I would never expect something of somebody else. Or for example, if something went wrong on theirs, I would say to them, well, of course, you know, and you're great and, okay, let's go again. And I would always be so positive towards another person. But for me, I am my worst critic. There is nobody who can criticize me more than myself. And I know everyone can tell me I've done a wonderful job. Everyone can tell me this is great and this is great. And I'll say, thank you. But I will say. that wasn't good enough, that wasn't good enough. And the bit that I want to understand is where does that actually come from? Why do we feel that way? Is it something to do with our childhood? Is it something that, is it the way that we've been raised through our life that we always had to have straight A's and we always had to be the best? Like where does it actually come from? And I'm fascinated by that. Yes, yes, I love that, love that. And you're already showing a lot of wisdom and lot of awareness because you are touching on places why that might be and where those things can come from. So the first thing is that we all have our personal map, know, our own perfectionism map. We all have our things that are very personal to us, like where it came from, where it got triggered. At what point? we take, because it's external validation, we take perfectionism at some point in our lives where we wanted connection, recognition, love, belonging. That's where we start from. Okay, so every human that's our innate things, that's what we want. We want to be seen, we want to be loved, we want to be safe. At some point in your life, in my life, it could have been at school, it could have been in your family of origin, something has happened that you got messages that said, well, who you are as you are, it's just not, you you weren't getting it. So you kind of then started scanning your environment and say, hmm, if I do this, that my so and so wants, or my teacher, or my, you know, if I do those things, I get... sense of connection. I get love, I get recognition and that feels good, right? So then you start looking outside and doing those things. And when, you know, I think that when that happens in that early age, it feels like we've discovered the keys to everything that we want. It just feels like, okay, this is the map. This is the, this is a template. Let me go. Let you know what are the boxes to take. I'm just going to go and tick that. So it feels liberating. It feels like, you know, I've got, you know, I've sussed this out. This is what I need to do. So, but the problem is then this is the problem. So you're constantly looking outside. You're constructing this version of yourself. And this is what I like to see. So now, now I am presenting this to you. So this is like you want to see, I'm presenting that to you. You don't see me behind it. Can you see me? No, so just for the list of senators holding up like a piece of card like in front of her face? Or are you presenting that like a blockage? You can no longer see you. this is my perfect self. This is my perfect self I have constructed by listening to the external world saying me, this is what you need to do. And when you do those things, you're going to receive love, recognition, connection, right? Success. Success is a way of recognition. So I now construct that and do these things. Now, behind of this, I might be... And we do, we still experience the same fears, same sense of, you know, overwhelm, sense of doubt. you we are the person behind that armor, if you think like this thing, you know, this perfect self, who is going, you who you are putting in the world is us, you know, not being taken care of. But the world is responding really well to this perfect self. So we are just keep putting that perfect self. But there is a disconnect between us and the perfect self. There is a disconnection. And we know that on a subconscious level, we know, we are thinking, well, the world actually likes this version of me. But if I took that down and if they saw that actually it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of You know, I work really hard to overcome my self doubt. I, I work really hard and I put a lot of effort to, to make it look, you know, to produce these results. if they knew that I'm efforting so much, if they knew that I'm, I'm, I'm putting, that, know, that I'm actually messy. They, know, they would be very disappointed. So I would lose all the, all the things that I want. So that is the, so this is why. most of like perfectionists when they come to you know when I work with them they don't you know people don't come to me and say I'm a perfectionist can I can I work with you people come with I don't feel confident I don't feel fulfilled I'm lacking courage actually I went I when I came I came to perfectionism because I wanted to be braver with my life I wanted to do more important things which I was stopping myself doing because I couldn't do it perfectly so it comes from that and, you touched upon that, you know, society like school, corporate world, it gives you, it gives you a template of like, know, this is what you need to do in order to be successful. And now when a corporate person comes out into, you know, into world of entrepreneur, entrepreneurship, where, know, it's now we are at the open sea. And you talk about that in your podcast. Like you talk about these, like, you you come into property now it's a new thing. There's zillions of things to learn, zillions of opportunities, zillions of, you know, options and roads you can take. And now suddenly from something structured. Yeah, there is the perfectionist, you know, essentially like you can see a lot of perfectionists go really high in their corporate career because there is a structure that. keeps you in line. So, you you don't have much space for procrastinating and kind of delaying, you know, making calls because, you know, your bosses are after you. Like, you know, there are people who, you know, there are checks and balances in place that kind of enable you to kind of, you know, do your perfectionist dance, but within a tighter framework. Entrepreneurship is like, ooh, right. You have to build a framework around yourself and manage those tendencies. So it becomes so much more complicated. you know, it's fascinating. I love this conversation because it's hitting the nail on the head. So for example, when I was in my corporate job, and I don't know if a lot of listeners can relate to this, I was a high flyer. I was, I was in the corporate job because, because it was structured, you know, there was a sales chart. We were taught how to sell. I was very good at it and I was always at the top and everyone kept trying it. Everyone always used to benchmark themselves against me. That was what that was the thing for seven years and I was aware of it. And I thought, right, I'm now going to become an entrepreneur for various reasons because obviously COVID hit and I left my job. And I always knew that I could do so much more than I was doing. And I think as entrepreneurs, we all have that within us, where we say to ourselves, we are greater than the life we are currently living. And that's what actually gets us to then go and take that leap. Hmm. actually what's fascinating is you're right. When I went from corporate life, which was very structured, very linear, to then starting entrepreneurship, suddenly I was free to roam. And I went over here and I went over here and I went over here. And people said to me when I first started my property journey and business journey, if you speak to a lot of people who know me well, they'll say, Athena was just scattered everywhere. Athena was over here doing this, she was over here, she was over here. think at one time I had like six businesses set up. I was like, yep, let's just go, let's just do this. And by the way, that wasn't the right thing to do, but we learn, we grow. And I kind of was just trying to find my way because there was so much endless possibility. But what actually happened was I started to get really frustrated with myself because certain things weren't working. And where I had been so successful in my previous life through school, through corporate, really successful, suddenly I felt, I felt, whether it was the reality or not, I felt that I was no longer being successful because there was no money coming in. Money was going out, there was no money coming in, I was being rejected constantly, I was getting things wrong all the time, and I thought, why am I failing? Why am I not good at this? And that used to be what I used to feel. And what was interesting is, I'm, I work with a lot of mentees at the moment, and this is why I feel I can help them so strongly. It's because I really resonate and understand how they feel going from a high flying corporate job to now entrepreneurship. And it is a shift of a journey and mindset in that. And it's this notion of They almost don't want to start because they don't want to start before it's going to be perfect. And I say to them, you are actually hindering yourself. So what could happen with that? So Tonella, I was to explain to you what I often see others do, for example, is let's say they wanted to start a podcast. For example, when I first started Girls in Property, it was... And if you go back to the original episodes, was in, it was in a room that had loads of noise happening above it. The microphones weren't quite right. The audio, the visuals, it wasn't quite right. And it still isn't where I want it to be to this day. I've still got a long journey to go, but at least, at least I started and then you get better later. So what would do almost your advice be to a listener who's sitting there, maybe has an idea, has a vision. wants to do a really good property deal, their first property deal, what would your advice be to them around this? So you identify two types of perfectionism. So your type is action driven. So there are people who can break through perfectionism and can tolerate. And again, like, you know, let's not make everything to be about perfectionism, but we are just going to look through that lens. So if we were to look through the lens of perfectionism, there people who can move forward even if what they're producing is not perfect. So you recognize even now that your podcast has been and is always gonna be on some sort of upward trajectory towards better. Right? So that's something, and you are able to take action despite that discomfort that is not perfect. Right? So that is a beautiful, so some perfectionists have that tendency and it's kind of like, you know, high functioning perfectionism, if you like. And what typically happens with people like that, and I don't know if it was this true for you, is that they, you you spend, you invest a lot of time and energy in the background making that current situation perfect. So you work extremely hard in order to put anything, so you might be working, you know, even what you consider now less perfect. I bet it took a lot of effort and hard work to actually make it happen at the time. It's so true, so true. Yes, absolutely. yeah. So you have that and then you have people who are kind of looking at this idea of a property deal, of a podcast and what perfectionism loves, you know. Our perfectionists love that moment where we are painting the possibility, right? So now head what could it be? right? So and and we are gathering you know so you're making these massive you know you're creating massive expectation about something it feels yummy it feels nourishing it feels like it's full of possibility like you know when we when we just enter that space it's just gonna be amazing right? And then some people will look at that they will create so much expectation around that and look at that and it's almost like I don't want to touch it because I know if I touch it it's going to, you the magic is going to disappear. Or when people kind of, you know, walk into this towards it and go start doing it. And of course, reality, you know, that first steps that we make is nothing like it. Like, you know, what you, you know, you from your podcast, you said, like, you know, some people need to call, make 10 calls. Now, making 10 calls to a state agent doesn't sound like a big deal when you listen in the classroom. or when you tell, you know, as a task. All right, what is it? When you make them, when you go towards it and you make them and the first person say no, the second person say no, don't have time, third person is rude to you, fourth person listens to you and then kind of says, no, you know, it makes no sense. You know, at that point, now a perfectionist, that sort of perfectionist will then... exit that, you know, what I call arena, that space, exit and go back to, okay, that is painful. And I'm going to go back to safety of planning and back of safety, you know, looking at from the outside, because it feels painful. So what do you have, you know, when you're trying to help people with who, know, who kind of yoyo between doing and not doing, you have to understand their, their The being in that arena is so painful and painful because we start to make stories about ourselves, not about what we are doing. We start making stories about who we are as entrepreneurs, as people. So you probably hear some language which is going to be, you know, I'm just not good enough. I'm not cut out for this. I am rubbish. am, you know, I'm just not good enough. And it would be some sort of, you know, some flavor of that. Because it, but it's visceral. You know, you're triggered into, you know, what also might happen as you go in there is that you're kind of saying, well, I doubted myself. I wasn't quite sure if I could do it. And now when I took that action, you're not taking it again as I'm learning this skill. No, no, no, no. this is the worst thing, this is the most painful thing, you are taking it as a confirmation of your unworthiness, of your inability to make it happen. And that's why it's painful. That's fascinating. I've seen that happen quite a bit actually. And it's really interesting when you have different personalities in front of you. And I love what you've just said in reference to that, where especially the agent calls, if we just take that for example, where people are trying to find property deals and by the fifth one they go, this is uncomfortable. I'm not happy in this arena. I want to go back to my comfort zone of planning. Yes. I have seen so many times before is people will procrastinate and they'll plan their logo, they'll plan their company name, they'll write a really pretty vision board of what they're gonna plan the week to look like, but not actually do the week that they've planned to do because their safety net is over here with pretty colors and planning, but when you actually go into the field, suddenly it's daunting, suddenly it's scary. of course. say to people, you will hit that, you can't avoid it, it will come, but you must push past that wall. And what I wanted to ask Senella is how would, and if it is at all, I'm not sure here, is perfectionism and almost fear related to each other? Is there an element of that? Is fear related to perfectionism? 100%. 100%. So two things I want to touch on that. So I'll answer that question and then remind me to talk about this push through it. Okay. So it is fear. It's 100 % fear. It's fear that who we are is not enough. who we are. It's not about, you know, whether I can do something. It's essentially, am shame. So perfectionism, the armor. So just to kind of reiterate, perfectionism is what we put out there. Behind what triggers that perfectionism is shame, a sense of not enoughness. Now, when we are triggered in shame, no amount, you can't reach this cognitive, your creative problem -solving brain. You can't reach it. Because shame is visceral. Shame is that feeling of like, you know, the agent is saying, no, I'm not interested or you make, you know, no sense or whatever. It's that sense, you know, earth, please open up and swallow me. You know, where is the rock I can climb on then, you know, and hide. That is how it feels because the essence of who we are is threatened. Okay, so we need to find a way. to nurture and to heal that essence of who we are, to disengage from what we are doing and who we are. especially in entrepreneurship, we kind of take these because we move into it because we want to... have some sort of self -actualization. As you said, I love the words you wrap around it. We want to create life that is better and bigger than what we currently have. So then that becomes such a personal thing. And a lot of entrepreneurs will talk, you know, this is my baby. This is my, you know, this is my passion. This is, you know, we kind of, and for perfectionists, that could be a triggering thing. Like, you know, then I equate myself with my work. I equate myself with those. So when they reject, they're not, they are not rejecting what I'm proposing. They're rejecting me. And that is so, that is so much painful. And you do not, do you know what mean? Like, so, one of the things that you can start to detangle is, is detangling your, your doing from your being. Because excellence, getting to that excellence when you are making 10 calls and converting, I don't know what's your conversion rate, but you're converting some reasonable amount, that excellence you can achieve by focusing on your doing. But you can't achieve excellence when you think that something is wrong with you, because how can you change yourself? Okay, does that make sense? It does. It does. I'm listening thinking this is so interesting about in two ways, actually, I'll tell you why it's interesting for me. I'm listening to you with two different hats on. So I'm listening to you with a hat for myself and thinking about me and myself. And then I'm using a different hat to think about my mentees and think about where they are at in their journey and how I can help them to move forward in their journey. Mm. Yes, yes, yes. So which one has more, your attention more? Where would you like me to go next? Well, you want me to ask you and to come back to this notion of how do we push past the wall? So for example, once we're there and we have that fear and we've been rejected five times and we want to retreat and we want to go back to our comfort zone because it's safe and it's lovely, how do we push past that wall? Okay, So pushing doesn't work, right? Especially for people who procrastinate. So people who take action and then maybe burn themselves out, there is a different danger to it, right? But I think you're more concerned about people procrastinate and go back to their comfort zone. Because, again, because behind perfectionism is shame. And shame makes us feel small. Right? So when we had that call and it didn't work so that it makes us feel small. It also makes us feel like we are the only one. Although we know logically we are not the only one who got rejected. To us it feels that we are the only person who ever been rejected by an estate agent. Right? You're smiling. Okay. So it has that property of isolating us yeah and kind of the focus is like I'm alone in this and that what that does is that I when I'm feeling that I'm not likely and I'm now making this is my problem this is me this is essentially me so I'm not likely to then reach out to you because I'm ashamed I don't want you to know that I have just been rejected you know, and kind of tell you how I actually feel. So I feel very vulnerable, very tender, and I'm making all these stories up about myself. So pushing doesn't work because pushing basically talks to this brain, through the cognitive brain that says, you know, something like, yes, this happens to everyone. Let's just, you you need to go back to it. You need to push through it. But you need to regulate, you need to tend to this side of you that is just experience, that sense of rejection, that sense of, you know, this is scary. You need to learn another skill. So the most effective skills that you can adopt as a perfectionist who is procrastinating, well, any perfectionist, but especially perfectionists who is procrastinating, is self-compassion. Hmm. And self -compassion, it's not just to meet yourself where you are. So if you are coaching somebody, let's say, who is in that space, instead of saying push through it, it would be for you as a mental, you need to have to develop a very good skill set in empathy. And so empathy and for high achievers, is hard because high achiever thinks empathy is also I need to solve your problem. So this is where it becomes very hard for, for mentors. Yes, exactly. People always say, Athena, you always try and solve the problem. If someone comes to you with a problem, I always think, how can I solve this problem? There is always a way to solve this problem. You're right. Empathy, although I am an empathetic person, empathy from a business sense is more challenging than what is your problem? Here is your problem. Here's how we fix your problem. Here's the solution. And if you can't do it, I'll do it. Yes, yes, if you can't do it, I'll do it for you, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have the dreams and you have the aspirations to reach thousands and thousands of women and kind of create this movement in property of, you so you, you know, as any leader on, on a higher level knows that you can't tend to everyone, you can't solve everyone's problem. So this is where your perfectionism is getting in the way for, you know, to connect with you know, connect without solving. It doesn't mean that you don't come to it. So this is, yeah, without kind of derailing this conversation, but essentially you need empathy. You need a strong way to sit, help somebody sit with what is present for them without judgment. Now, without judgment, but with aim to go through it. Okay, so this is the self compassion is all about, you know, what, what, what empathy, like, you know, especially in business, like what we fear is that like, when we show some empathy and understanding towards somebody who's, let's say, procrastinating, then they are going to be stuck there forever. Like, you know, you're kind of, you're going to allow them and, and your self critic, you mentioned earlier, your self critic has the same fear. So if I'm not, if you talk to yourself nicely, If you kind of allow yourself to feel whatever you're feeling about whatever happens, if you give yourself, if you're not instantly moving forward or pushing through, your kind of your voice is like, if I allow myself any kindness, you know, I'm going to be like, you know, I won't amount to anything. So that same voice is present when you are empathizing with people because you are worried that they're going to get stuck. So you see how who we are. pretty much determines how much we can allow other people to grow. But on a kind of practical level, you need empathy. The perfectionist needs self -compassion. And so the most important element of self -compassion is this perspective taking. Ability to take a bigger view, larger than yourself, which perfectionism doesn't. Perfectionism, it's all about me. It's not. even what I'm doing, it's me and self -compassion says no let's look like this is this is a normal thing and then what self -compassion also says but I see that you feel pain about this I see that you feel pain and then not only that I see it, I want to do something about it. So this is where then kind of problem solving, the problem solving of the need. So, you know, when you get the rejection for the fifth call, you get the rejection and your system is now all fired up and you're dysregulated. Like now you're not operating from your cognitive, like, you know, your creative brain, you're operating from your your amygdala has taken over, you're hijacked, your whole system is on high alert. At that point, there's no point, you know, can push through and make calls, but you are not at your best self. It's much better instead of hiding under the rock, which is an option that we take or we disengage, to give yourself a moment of self -compassion, which we have instant access to. which would be like just, just recognize, like just giving yourself a hug. I know it sounds funny. Yes. Linked, Zoom approves. It's connected. Yeah. really interesting. And actually it's given me a greater perspective on actually understanding that procrastination and perfectionism can look very differently for different people. And some people need that push and some people need empathy. And I think that's a really interesting. lesson that I'm going to take away from this when going forward is really understanding who needs what at different times. You did mention Sunella and actually a lot of listeners fall into this category, myself included, which will not surprise you. When we start off in our businesses, a lot of us do suffer from burnout because we are so, well, I say we, I was so, what's the right word to use? Mm. I had this notion, which I now understand was wrong. I do understand that, but you have this notion ingrained in you, which is almost, I cannot fail. And so you become, you become in essence addicted to needing to succeed because you've succeeded your whole life. So you believe, and I don't, again, I don't know where this stems from. I'm not sure. It might be the corporate life. It might be, early childhood. You believe that you need to sit at a desk. and you need to work constantly around the clock. And if you take a break from your work and you allow yourself time to recover, you feel guilty because you're not doing everything in your power to make the business a success. So what happens is you become very unwell. I've experienced burnout twice because of this notion of needing this desire to succeed. And actually it's taken me admittedly two years, really two years to now be in a healthy place where I'm proud to admit now, which is such a big deal for me. I now have an incredible understanding of work -life balance and this notion of it doesn't have to be perfect. It's okay to be what it's meant to be. So what would you say about burnout and people who suffer from it and where this maybe comes from? you know, from a psychological point of view.-hmm. Yes, Yeah. And gosh, you say it took you two years to learn those lessons and you kind of, I just want to acknowledge that, you know, some people never learn, some of us kind of go into that trap of never giving ourselves a rest, feeling guilty. all our lives. So it's beautiful that you have learned it. It's beautiful that you share that. And it's a big thing. It's really big thing. Two years is nothing, you know, to learn a lesson like that. like it was a lifetime, if I'm honest, because when you live it every day, it's draining. It's really draining. And actually, be honest with you, and this is what I'd recommend to all listeners actually, is it was the people around me that actually got me out of it because they were the ones who watched me every day and were like, this is unhealthy. You're not actually growing a healthy business. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes. Yes. Wow. Okay. Grateful for people around you. So what's the center of it? When we are in this perfectionist mindset, we can't appreciate effort. And so because we can't appreciate effort and because business, building a business, you know, When you were in your corporate job, you had a list of people, list of prospects, you called them, you do a good job. And then, you know, next list comes. there's, there's, there is a, you know, and there's so much more behind it. Like you have a, you know, the corporate brand behind you, like, there's, there's so much behind you. Now you're bringing, building something new. That something new requires a lot of effort. Perfectionists are terrible at estimating effort. Because when we are estimating effort from our perfect self by kind of thinking, you know, I listened to so and so, they sounded like, you because when we talk about, you know, our achievement, when we are looking, having achieved at something, when you look back, we look, you know, we kind of summed that up in a very nice, like, you know, sentence and a kind of story that we wrap with a little ball and we serve to people, yeah. So your perfectionist is basically looking at all of these like examples on social media on here and there like and thinking, okay, it seems that she doesn't, you know, she doesn't effort at all when she does that, you know, it comes easy to her and she, know, so subconsciously you're expecting the same things. Also you're kind of looking at, you know, you have unrealistic expectations. So, and then you, you, you meet the reality. So. how many times have you started doing something, creating something, anything, it's gonna take me three hours and at the top of three hours is like, shit, you I haven't barely started. Now your perfection, exactly, but your perfection is a mindset would be like, hmm, what's wrong with you? The perfectionist would go, what's wrong with you? You know, other people, they do it in two hours and you haven't even started. So that is the talk that kind of gets that perfection. underestimating how much something is to because you at the beginning, you don't have a clue how long things take. It takes doing and doing and doing to find out how much it takes to you. So there is that sense of not estimating and then not valuing effort. So at the end of the day, because you are used to outputs, and in our businesses, we see with kind of first have to find a seed, we plant that seed, then we have to water that seed, and nothing happens forever. Nothing happens. And then suddenly, come, if you've watered every day and you've done it, I've got a garden. But most of us kind of look at that and say, wow, nothing's coming. So I need to, in order for it to come out and out of ground and do this job, the effort it takes to grow something. I have to sit and watch it because otherwise it will not happen. So what you are describing that burnout is that because we can't appreciate the effort, we are bad at planning and estimating. So then we start losing trust in ourselves that we'll show up again tomorrow and do it tomorrow. So there's so many things playing in there. And the only answer, logical answer to us is like, if I give it my all. And of course, society tells you like, you know, if you're, if you love something, you do it. And it's, that never feels like work and all that crap. Do you know what I So there's, there's, there is a lot kind of in there, but in essence, you, if you start valuing effort and if, if you start being compassionate towards yourself, which mean, you know, breaking things down into, into achievable things, not for what you think you should be doing. But like, okay, I have made, you I needed to make 10 calls, I made two. So instead of kind of saying, well, you tomorrow I'm going to make 15 because my perfect self believes that, you know, let's, let's push, let's push the bar up. And that bar basically, but you are a two. No, you need to kind of meet yourself where you are. You know, make three tomorrow, make four, make baby steps. But your perfection is you kind of, there is a... there is a fight because perfectionist doesn't like that. Doesn't like it. It likes big goals. And big goals means sitting in your business all the hours of, you know, that God sent and then feeling guilty. you know, there's this sense of punishing yourself, you know, by not taking rest. so interesting. It's really interesting that you use that and actually the thing that's really struck a chord with me is this notion and I love it and you're so right is plant a seed and the seed is not going to grow overnight it takes time to nourish and I have to say I speak to and I understand why because I used to have this mentality not anymore though where a lot of people think that when they start this journey of entrepreneurship and specifically property. It's not their fault because there are a lot of people both offline and online who sell this dream that becoming a business owner and a property entrepreneur, you become rich in 90 days or even a year. it's like, that isn't actually how it works. It isn't. It takes time, it takes effort. You'll always hear me say it's a marathon, not a sprint. Yes. what happens is they have very unrealistic expectations of themselves. And so they think, well, this should have worked by now. I'm a month in and I've spent my money on letters and I've spent my money on the HMO register and why haven't I got my first rent to rent property? And it's like, because it was never going to happen that way. It's unrealistic. But you've been given this notion that it can work because you've watched a post on social media that's made you believe it can happen. Yes. think that's what's detrimental to people. And certainly when I started my journey, you hit the nail on the head when you said to me, it was this notion that I was, and I hope a lot of listeners listen to this and nod along and then recognize it and move away from it, which is I wasn't seeing results at the start. So I therefore thought rather than sitting back and letting it breathe and letting it grow and letting the business Like do what the business is meant to do. I instead pushed into it because I'm an action taker. That's my personality. And so I thought, well, if I do more, I'll achieve more and I haven't seen results yet. So therefore I have to keep going and going and going. And I'm still not seeing the results that I expect of myself. So I have to keep pushing and going. And therefore what then happens is you effectively reach your limit and probably surpass your limit. yes, yes exactly, yes, yeah yeah yeah. Yes, mm mm mm. Yeah yeah yeah what's wrong with you? Yeah yeah yeah so you're piling more things on mm -hmm mm -hmm mm -hmm. Yes, yes, yes. what ends up happening is nothing gets achieved and it's a really negative cycle, if you like. It is, you just took a moment to go, today was okay. What did I achieve that was really great today? I called 10 agents. Okay, eight said no, but two said yes. Let's follow up. Let's not now do another 10 hours of work to try and combat that feeling of failure. Let's go for a walk. Let's go, let's go have dinner. Let's go have a life, you know? beautiful. So when I'm thinking about you as a mentor, helping people to set the goals. So what you just said that is what perfectionists do is they say, okay, make 10 phone calls. and that's going to be good at the beginning of the day that you know if I do 10 phone calls that's going to be a great achievement you do but what you're effectively saying to yourself make 10 phone calls and get a yes so perfectionists always wrap some sort of conditioning on the goals that that kind of you know it slides under like you know so so that you're always cheating yourself So when you do those 10 calls and you've got two yeses, your perfectionist says, mm -mm, I didn't get 10 yeses and therefore you can rest. So one of the things you can help and this is what comes in my practice is to become good at setting goals and then sticking with them. Not raise a bar, just run a marathon, yeah? And then at whatever, 23 miles or... You know, in the 22nd mile you said, by the way, there's another five miles. And you think, pfff, I just paced myself to get there and it was bloody hard. Sorry, just fan. But like, you you can't, you can't just add five, five miles at, you know, now. So helping people to set realistic goals, to value, to kind of not, not move post, you know, the, what are they called? A goal post. posts, yep. move them and then you get when you hit them rest. So one of the greatest skills and the hardest skills apart from self -compassion which is extremely hard to learn for perfectionists, another one is to take rest, the value of rest. So what I do and what I have been taught by my coach is to actually plan rest before I plan my day so that there is a time for renewal. Because what you experience, it's really hard. And I'm glad you recovered and I'm glad you're in a better place. But that is a very, very hard way to learn something. It is. And actually I think I've now recognized, and this is the advice I would give to listeners based on our conversation scenario, if I may, which is when you set yourself goals and you make those goals realistic, and I'm going to use calling agents because it's an easy one to use for us all to understand and us all to relate to. So what I would say is if you're going to set yourself a goal of calling 10 agents, make it so that there is no condition attached to that goal. So what used to happen is I used to subliminally, whether I knew I was doing it or not, I used to create a condition of that goal. So I might write down, call 10 agents, right? But that wasn't the goal. The goal was, call 10 agents and get 10 yeses. So what used to happen is I used to call 10 agents and it changes now, but let's just say at the beginning, you know, let's just go with five said no, five said yes. So I don't then stop calling the agent. because only five have said yes. I have to call another five to get another five yeses because the condition was 10 yeses. So what my advice would be to be a much healthier, happier person is set realistic goals and do not have a condition attached to them and allow yourself to be proud that you at least call 10 agents, learn from what went well, learn from what didn't and go again the following day. Otherwise you do experience burnout and it will come your way. Mm -hmm. although it's wonderful to feel like, yes, look at me and I'm a hustling and I'm a business owner and I'm working till 12 o 'clock at night and aren't I amazing? Yes, but I'll see you on the other side when you're burnt out because believe me, I've been there. I've walked that path and it's not healthy. And actually what I will say, Sunela, is this is why I think a mentor is so important within the property industry, because I've gone to a lot of property courses when I first started. You know, teach me about HMOs, teach me about service accommodation, teach me about buy to let, fine. That bit's fine, easy. And of course we'll do that for you. You know, if that's what you want, go for it. But what a mentor is there to do is to guide you from looking within yourself and directing you on a path that is greater than just property. It's about being, it's about being a business owner, but in a healthy way and looking at, where is it you actually are going? What is it you're looking for? Mm -hmm. I loved about what you said was, so my life used to be that I used to try and schedule in time for myself. And I tell you, if I'm honest with myself, because there's no point being anything else, what I used to do is if a meeting needed to be booked in for an urgent matter, the first thing that used to come out of my diary was self care and myself. It would be like three o 'clock, go for a walk. Yeah, that can go. No, no, no. We're now putting a meeting in there. Lunch. No, lunch can go. Meeting. And that's literally what my life for two years was like. And now what I'm so proud of myself, so proud that I now say is I plan my weeks based on my gym classes that I like to go to or my workout times. And what now happens is the meetings go around the gym. So if I've got body pump, if I've got gym class, if I've got swimming, if I've got whatever it may be, I'm like, sorry, I can't do then. And so the meetings have to work around it. And I'm very strict about that. So I'm very proud that I finally got to that place where I am now in a position where I can say that. Fabulous. And just for your listeners, articulate if you can, what made that, how are you viewing your gym lessons? What are you getting from them to give you that sense that they are priority now? So two things. So the first one is, is that I get to use my brain for something that isn't business related and I get to rest my brain. So I get to just think creatively and I get to think, and you know, the best ideas come to me now when I'm not thinking about the business and I'm lifting weights or I'm running or I'm swimming and I'm like, that's a good idea because I've allowed my brain to relax and be free. Mm then also physically, when you're sat at a desk all day, you are exhausted and you have low energy because you haven't moved all day. Now I have so much energy and people always say when I come on the meetings now, they're like, wow, you've got bags of energy. I'm like, yeah, I'm going for a swim. It's great. Because my body is moving and I'm who I was always meant to be. My background is I used to dance till I was 18. I used to move all the time. yeah, for two years, I just became this hermit that used to sit at a desk and became somebody that I wasn't meant to be. And so for all the listeners, my advice to you would be just go and move. Even if it's 10 minutes, just go and move. You will feel so much better for it. And don't ever move that from your diary. Keep it strict, keep it firm, keep it in there. and and it's beautiful because what you are getting from that I think the reason we put that priority is that you get that rejuvenation you you become better you and you come better into your business. So that I had the kind of the mental download that you get or the access to some creativity and also you are taking care of your body so that you can run this marathon. So you have found that joy and that reward in doing that. So that is what people need. that might be different thing for different people, but that rest and rejuvenation is essential and a very hard skill. You know, even when we say just do that, there is nothing just about what you've done. There's nothing just like, you know, in inverted commas because that was hard thing to do. And that's something also to acknowledge. exactly. And the last thing I'll say is, is, what I always say to people, which is don't ever, don't ever replace your job for another job, which is what a lot of us, what a lot of us do. Remember why you did this in the first place. Yes. Yes. Work hard. Yes. It's your business. Yes. You know, really go for it. Remain consistent. I'm not saying don't, but remember why you're doing it. Always do that. So, Fabulous. And I didn't do this, I didn't do that. So I'm now very conscious of helping others to learn from my mistakes. That's why I speak about it so openly is to help others. But Senella, I have loved having you on this podcast. We have spoken for a long time and I have loved it. And I can't wait to get you back on to talk about something else. I want to talk to you about so many different topics, but I'm conscious of time, but thank you. thank you. Thank you so much, because you've you've given me a lot to think about and a lot to reflect on and how I can be better for myself and show up better for myself, but how I can show up and be better for my mentees as well. And I'm really gonna take that on going forward, so thank you. And then just before I let you go, really, really quickly is can you just tell us about a really quick property disaster, property mishap that you maybe had recently from your own experience, just to finish off the podcast. so obviously I'm not in the property, the one mistake or disaster that we did when we first bought our first flat was that we didn't understand that we shouldn't buy a leasehold. It was a leasehold and it was 69 years left on the leasehold and I wanted that property so badly that I was like it's okay, you know, and then I can't remember how much we had to A, the process was complicated to get the extension on leasehold. And then we paid like God knows how much to get it. So that was my disaster. Great advice, great advice for anybody who's taking on a leasehold property. Always check the term of the lease. How long is left? How long is it going to cost? Because obviously it costs a lot of money to extend a lease. It's at the freeholder's discretion at the end of the day and there is no logic to it. So yes, great bit of advice there. So thank you. And then if people wanted to get in contact with you to learn a bit more from you, learn more about... perfectionism or other topics that you speak about, how can people find you? The best place to find me is LinkedIn at Sanela Lukanovic or selfdom .life Perfect, I love that. And of course, if you wanna get hold of me, I'm Athena Dobson, underscore official on Instagram, we are Girls in Property. If you want to email, we're girlsinpropertypod at gmail .com. Of course we have the Girls in Property Community Group as well, which is absolutely incredible. Go for 65 members now. So if you want to join, just DM me the word community, come and join. Got our next guest speaker who's gonna be on talking all about time management and energy management in September. We've also got the Christmas Gala, which is going to have about 80 to 100 women, which is going to be on the Saturday, the 7th of December. So if you want to come and have a party with us, just give me the word Gala. I'll send you the details. And then finally, we're talking a lot about procrastination and mindset today and shifting that mindset. I built a free resource for everybody so that everyone can have their mindset in the right place when they're going into property investment, which is the property accelerator. So if you want access to that, which is a free resource I'm giving away, just DM me the word mindset. And I'm more than happy to send that to you and help you as best I can on your property journey. Sunila, thank you so much for your time today. I've loved it. And I love talking to you about all of this because it just really gets my mind going. And I can't wait to get you back on the podcast again soon. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. Have a great day everyone. Bye!