From Classroom to Cash Flow: Property Strategies & Networking Secrets with Michelle Cairns

In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast, host Athena Dobson sits down with Michelle Cairns, a powerhouse in the property industry. Michelle shares her inspiring journey from secondary school teacher to successful property investor and educator, highlighting the transferable skills that helped her transition.

They dive into the power of community in property events, key career milestones, and Michelle’s firsthand experience using purchase lease options—including how she applied this creative strategy to buy her own home. The conversation also covers the impact of networking in accelerating success within the property sector.

Athena and Michelle wrap up with an insightful discussion on podcasting, and advice for aspiring podcasters, personal growth beyond property, and the challenges of event planning. Whether you're new to property investment or looking to level up, this episode is packed with valuable advice on resilience, community, and personal development.

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone. Welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. So believe it or not, we are at episode 99 for the podcast, which is absolutely insane when I say that out loud. So next episode when you will be listening will be the hundredth episode. And what I thought was, was who do I want to get on for the 99th episode? And I've thought to myself, I really want to get on a powerhouse women. woman within the property industry who does all sorts within it actually from property investing to doing her own podcast putting on events and I just thought we could have a really really great chat so that anyone who is listening could be inspired today. So I would love to introduce you to Michelle Cairns. Hey Michelle. Thanks, Athena. It's absolutely delightful to be on. It's great to just be able to speak to your audience. And I know you have been out there. keep seeing you kind of pop up in all these different places. And you've built a really solid community yourself and a community with a mission and a purpose. And it's lovely to see so many people kind of getting on board with your mission and just coming together as part of that community. And it's great to now be. officially part of it, so thanks for inviting me. Of course. Thank you, Michelle. Thank you for those kind words. It's interesting, isn't it? We said just before we came on the podcast, like we see each other all the time at these events and of course at your property entrepreneur summit. And because there's so many people in the room and so many different things, sort of are walking horizontally, so, know, in whatever direction we're going. And then finally we've had our opportunity to now come together and to get you on this podcast. So I'm really looking forward to today because What I love, somebody asked me this question the other day. They said to me, and I don't know if you feel this, cause I know you have your own podcast. They said, what is it that you love the most about your podcast? And I said, I love getting to know people's stories. I can sometimes spend so much time with a person and known them for months and months, spoke on Instagram, everything. But then I don't, but then they come on the podcast and they tell me something that I had no idea about, about their journey, their story. and that's the bit that I love the most. So I'm really looking forward today to actually hearing from you, your story, what you're doing with everything and kind of going from there really. So yeah, exciting. Great, right, well where should we start? Okay, let's start here. So the best way to always start is please can you introduce yourself first, tell everybody about you, your story, your journey, how you got into property, what you're doing now regarding, you know, other things for multiple streams of income within the industry, and maybe something about you that maybe people don't know as well. Okay. So Michelle Cairns, most people probably know me through your property network, YPN. I've been with YPN for six years now. Started off just doing interviews and doing their webinars and then getting more involved in the business side of things, doing the podcasts and then creating training programs for them as well. So that kind of was a great opportunity for me and actually fed my inner teacher desire. coaching teacher. So before working with YPN and before getting into property, I was a full-time secondary school teacher. So I taught French and Spanish to the lovely students, 11 to 18 year olds. you know, I, there's lots of elements I absolutely loved about it. And I did that for only 10 years, but I thought it's not sustainable. So I was looking to get, you know, some sort of a side hustle backup plan. I thought I'm not going to be able to still do this at my retirement age. And that coincided with reading Rich Dad Poor Dad Someone Gave Me. The usual kind of cliche. yeah, it kind of like property was never really part of my world before reading that book, before kind of stepping into this underground secret club of property education in the UK. And yeah, so I, you know, I've always kind of just, I mean, I never even, I still don't have my own home, but you know, my I've always rented and we're actually a purchase lease option at the moment. But as far as property was concerned, traveling the world was always, you know, the priority and learning languages and obviously being a linguist, speaking French and Spanish and going all over the world traveling was, it was just all that I wanted to do and never really considered, dare I say, kind of settling down and getting on the property ladder. Just, it wasn't really, I didn't have any strong world models in that space. So, but always been super interested in personal development and fell into that at fairly young age. You know, was in my early twenties when I went to my first Tony Robbins event and then completely loved that. Started volunteering on their crew and went to America and did some sessions with their, you know, the date with destiny and in the UK and just, yeah, kind of thrived on that. But yeah, never kind of went down that finance route for whatever reason. So, yeah, it was kind of like a brief mishmash of life. Obviously through my teaching career, there came a point where I'd built up enough income through the property where I could gradually, and I did it the very kind of slow route, some might say, but very conservatively built up the income stream through the property. reduced my hours, went part-time and then did some supply and just kind of made sure I had that safety net and then left and that, you know, that worked for me. Like in hindsight, could I have done it differently? Could I have done it quicker and all the rest of it? Well, yes, but I didn't. So, you know, I think it's for anyone listening who is in that situation where they're thinking, should I just burn the bridges and make it happen for me? I think that was just... much of a strip, it's like too much stress. But certainly if you've got any you know kids and family commitments and that kind of thing I just thought it's not where I want to be as I want to kind of create this unnecessary stress. I want to make sure I'm doing this properly, learning what I need to learn and you know there's clearly a lot of money to be made in property but also a lot of money to lose if you don't know what you're doing. So I think I probably came across a kind of few scare stories and thinking okay you know just need to make sure I'm I've just set myself up to succeed rather than just kind of being lucky and just winging it. Of course we're all winging it, but hopefully with less risk than is necessary. Wow, I love that. So there are a couple of things I want to ask you just off of the back of what you just said. And I was, I was like trying to make a mental list in my head of all the questions I wanted to ask. So number one, see, here we go. This is an excellent, this is what I'm just talking about. I didn't know that you used to be a teacher teaching young kids and I didn't know that you spoke French and Spanish. That's amazing. Like what a talent to have. Yeah, and it's interesting because when people talk about transferable skills from previous work and when I thought, when I was thinking about leaving teaching, I was thinking, God, you know, what other industry could I go in into? And, you know, of course there's plenty of skills that I've learned from being a teacher and how to communicate with people, how to kind of present information and, you know, and lots of interpersonal skills, of course, when you're trying to teach teenagers. but also just simply like the language elements when I started, you know, learning about property instantly, I kind of looked at it as a language and I thought, right, okay, here is a load of acronyms. There's all of these phrases. And, I thought if I can kind of hack that and learn the language of property, that should be able to fast track me because then I'm going to understand things better. going to be able to have better conversations with investors or know, solicitors or agents, I'm going to be able to talk their language. And that's just, you know, one example of a sort transferable skill from the old life. God, how interesting is that? And do you know what's even more interesting for me? I get a lot of messages about people who are either in the property industry or looking to start out. Loads of teachers, loads. Like, my goodness, even in the community, I think in the community, we've got at least, I want to say at least four teachers, four to five teachers. And so I think that that... It is about transferable skills, isn't it? And it's about, and they all teach different things as well. I'm just trying to, I'm just sitting here thinking, wow, there's a lot of teachers is what I'm thinking to myself. Do you? Yeah. How, how. interesting is that and like for example I am I actually went and did my first ever what's the word speaking event but for a school so they invited me in they were like can you come and speak to our young 15 year old girls and I was straight away was like absolutely yes had no idea what to expect literally got there and they are sharp young women really sharp, they just want to learn, ask lots of questions, but I do presume that going in once and doing it and doing it every single day is slightly different isn't it? It's quite difficult to teach young minds. it's uh you know it's there's pros and cons to any everything and um gosh you know you've got the opportunity to really make a huge difference in the kids lives of course uh i remember when i read the rich dad poor dad book i just thought wow i can't remember how old i was um well i must have been 32 so 10 years ago so in my 30s and i thought wow how have i got to this age and i've not understood this seemingly quite basic concept of not trading my time for money, at least having the option to invest and a different way of earning money. The thought had just never really crossed my mind. So when I was, had a form, you know, my own students and I said, my God, you've got to read this. This is incredible. You know, and they're like 11 years old and they're like, what's this, this, you know, but some of them actually read it and... And I had lots of really interesting conversations. I'd literally set up the lessons in French and Spanish so that we were doing, you know, part-time jobs and money. And I'd gear the whole lesson around, around investing and how much money, you know, teachers earn and, we'd go throughout like the breakdown of expenses. And they were like, wow. So like, yeah, you don't really earn that much money, do you miss? You know, not when you take off all the bills, there's like not much left at the end of the month. and things like that. think, you know, it's just so important these life skills that no one else is really teaching them. So it's a those children were lucky to have you as their teacher, know, learning French and Spanish, but actually being taught that. All I got taught in French and Spanish was this way to the beach. This is how many apples I would like to buy. There was no, there was none of this investment stuff. That sounds incredible. I might've actually been interested. Yeah, yeah. It was fun, know, and I mean, whatever I do, whether it's, you know, back teaching French and Spanish or now obviously I'm in a teaching coaching role with YPN and it's that's, that's my, you know, my passion. I'm in my flow and I'm creating and I'm sharing useful information. I feel like I'm really making a difference, making people think differently and giving them, you know, a new way of thinking. And then it's giving them choices. It's not about saying this is the right way for you. It's like, Okay, here are some other things you might not have thought about and now you know you've got to think about which is the right way to go next so yeah. that. That's what I do with this podcast as well. And of course my coaching is exactly what you just said, which is letting them make their own choice, but just saying, well, have you thought about this? Have you thought about this? And when they try and get you to say, well, what would you do? You're like, no, what would you do? Because you want to try and get them to think, don't you? You do. And it's difficult for people who are coming into the property education world at the moment because there is so much noise and there's so many different people selling their different like niches. You know, you kind of come across people who are, you know, this is what they do and they've made it work. And whether it's like commercial to residential, this is what you need to do or service accommodation or HMOs or... whatever it is, and like they do that. And I always say to people, it all works. So like that's hard because you can see that it is work for this person, but they don't understand you and where you're at and what your goals are, what you're looking to achieve, what your resources are. So like it's, it's really difficult, I think, to kind of gauge which is the right avenue, which is the right strategy, where's the best place to start when I guess, each option looks great and it is great. Yeah absolutely, well we're gonna come on to that because I actually want to have a conversation with you about that in greater detail. Before we do that, Michelle what are you celebrating at this moment for yourself? Well, it's funny you should ask and for people watching or listening, I, Athena hasn't even set this up. You, you, but I had the magazine ready and we're actually celebrating 200 issues of YPN. So YPN has actually been going for 16 years and that's the front page of our, the cover of our magazine. So wow, that's, that's what we're celebrating as a business, which is quite cool. Personally. This year marks 10 years of me investing. So I bought my first investment property back in 2015. like, wow, that's come out quick. 10 years, whole decade. And also celebrating, you know, a lovely new home that I'm in and getting that on a purchase lease options. Pretty cool. lots to celebrate at the moment. Very, very blessed and you know, lot of the hard work that has been put in over last 10 years is is compounding and yeah, it just, you know, it shows up in different ways that you don't expect. I mean, you know, even the opportunity to come and speak to you today is a celebration of 10 years of hard work and yeah, sharing the message. I love that. And how funny is that? So I'm doing, I'm celebrating my 100th episode next week and you've got your 200th edition of YPN. That's amazing. You're literally like 100 ahead. Yeah, exactly. That's absolutely brilliant. And this is the thing, Michelle, like I always ask on this podcast, every single guest, what are you celebrating at this moment? I've done it from day dot. And it's because when you're 10 years in and there's so many things going on, you sometimes do forget, don't you, to think, well, actually, what am I celebrating? What is there that that's good? Because we feel like we're on this hamster wheel that just goes and goes. So it is such a lovely thing to just reflect and think, actually, where am I at right now? So I love doing that and I always love hearing people's and it's interesting when some people choose a professional celebration, some people choose a personal celebration and I loved hearing the fact that you did both as well. I think that's really, really great. Just before I talk about my celebration, just want to touch on something you just said, which was this notion that you've said that your home that you're living in at the moment is a purchase lease option and that you have sort of chosen to do that. So first of all, for anyone who doesn't actually know what a purchase lease option is and you've done it on your own home, can you just explain what your situation is? So a purchase reception is it's not really like a strategy like HMO or SA, it's more a way of acquiring a property. you very simply with this one, I put in an offer, it was on the market for 325,000. I put an offer in and said I'd like to offer full asking price, but I'd like five years to be able to buy it. And in the meantime, I will pay a thousand pounds a month as a lease fee. That was very simple after some thinking time they came out and said yes we'll go ahead and that's it we moved in so basically you lock in the agreed price at the beginning you lock it in for the period of time for the option agreement in this case five years and then we paid them an agreed amount every month and that's it I mean you can go into it in a lot of detail people do courses on it And it's something that is certainly worth looking into as one of the tools in the toolbox. But yeah, so that's pretty cool. It's an incredible location and a location that I've always wanted to live in. So just by the lake, the view overlooks the lake where we live. It's absolutely incredible. So it's an absolute joy. And in some ways it kind of feels a bit surreal, like we're on holiday every day, we look out the window like, wow, this is incredible. wow, I love that for you. That's amazing. Yeah, and to be fair, that's amazing that they actually agreed to do that. Must have been a really sort of motivated person because you know, imagine saying to somebody, I want to pay you what you're asking for, but I'm not going to pay you for five years. And in the meantime, I'm going to pay you this. Like not everyone would agree to that. Yeah, it's not for everyone and you know when I'm speaking to agents or even vendors I just say you know this is definitely not for everyone and it only suits people who they don't need their money right now. So this was a property that know the guy inherited and so he was just going to put the money in the bank and then eat into it every month so better than that he may as well just not eat into the capital and just get paid every month and then still have the pot of money at the end of the five years so you know, five years, 60 months, that's an extra 60,000 pounds on top of the purchase price. the fact that this was actually through an estate agent as well, they, that's surprising. I didn't tell anybody. It was so funny because I wasn't going to tell anyone because thought it was too good to be true. They're never going to go for it. It's going to fall through. It's going to fall through. And then I sort of announced to my friends and family, we've moved house. Here we are. So yeah, it went through and there we go. So just goes to show you, if you don't ask, you don't get. So yeah. use your own contracts? you put forward the contracts to the estate agent then? Yeah, yeah, yeah, brilliant. But the fact what I meant is that because usually the estate agents get a bit funny about things that they don't understand, but they were open to it then. I just kept saying to them, you're going to get your money as soon as the contracts go through. So that should be quicker than a normal mortgage. And that was it. So I just kind of reassuring them. on that Michelle. I'm actually really curious about this. My final question on this matter is, when you say that it went through an estate agent, how did you work out in terms of their fee if they weren't selling the property? Did they still get their upfront fee for say they were going to sell it in five years so it was regardless they still got their fee? Yeah, so I could have done a lot more negotiation on this, but it's an absolutely like dream home for us. So I wanted to kind of just give, make it a no brainer for the owner to say yes. So it's just making it as easy as possible. So we just, uh, we made the offer. They said they were thinking about it in which case we kind of knew that they were ingested and then we just kept going with like offers. So I just said, right, I'll pay the agent fees. That's it. 6,000 pounds. Uh, I'll pay. sister's fees, it's like £2,000 per side and then we said we'll pay six months upfront and then they were still thinking about it and I said right we'll pay 12 months upfront final offer that's it and they said yes so yeah we just paid it as if it had been sold Wow, brilliant. Okay, great. And then at the end then of the five years, they that that that's then the deal done with you guys, you don't need to involve the estate agent again, do you? It's just between it's gone. So they literally put a sold sign up our side. So as far as anyone was concerned it was sold to by them and we said yeah if we're gonna sell it we'll come back to them but we plan on just keeping it so. course, yeah, creative acquisition, I love it. And it's so much more special, isn't it, when it's for your own home? I always find that. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And we've always liked the flexibility of renting and but now having the opportunity to be here, it's quite unique. There's not many houses along here you see, so they don't come up very often. So to get the opportunity to be here in some kind of way. So let's see what happens next. That's the plan. I love that. And I'm sure you're going to have inspired so many people to again, think differently, think, how could I do that? So I love that. Fantastic. What am I celebrating? I'm celebrating the fact that when this podcast comes out, the the girls and property retreat will officially have been launched, which got launched this weekend just gone, which was amazing. I don't know, Michelle, I don't know if you're like me, I always set really, really high goals for myself. I'm sure you're exactly the same. And so I'm like, because it's sold out for the last two years when I've done this, like it just goes, the tickets go instantly. I was like I wonder if I can really go for it and just sell all 80 tickets in two days and I was like yeah I can do that, I'm sure I can do that and I had a waitlist and everything but when, but to be fair, when it actually came to the crunch of it, because it's over a weekend and people have lots of different things that are on, et cetera, I managed to sell 50 % of the tickets in two days, with the others just checking diaries and dates and childcare and everything like that. So still 50 % tickets sold in two days to, you know, an 80 attendee retreat with. Congratulations. before that's before the speakers have been announced That's before the expert tables have been announced like people are just like yeah, I'm there whatever it is. I'm there It's going to be in Turing in Hertfordshire Yeah, so it's in Hertfordshire at a place called Pendley Manor, which I've done for the last time the last one and it just works so well However, having said this I should just let people know I'm doing a lot more sort of investigating where the listeners are actually from the podcast, where people are. And I think I might try and do some a bit more kind of towards Birmingham way next time, because that tends to be where the majority of listeners are and a bit of the North, but at the South. But I'm just so proud of it. I really am. I'm so proud. I can't wait to announce the speakers. Can't wait to announce everyone who's going to be sponsoring it as well and just get the party started. So I'm going to be celebrating that. Sounds very exciting, well congratulations. It sounds like a great opportunity because it's one of those and you'll know with the podcast is that it's a very, even though it's a two-way conversation for us, it's a one-way conversation for people listening. And so actually to get to meet people in real life and come and get to know them and yeah, it makes it all real, it? Absolutely. mean, so this is the thing, Michelle, you do, you obviously do your own events as well. And so do you ever have it? And I'm sure you do where people message you and they say, Michelle, we've been listening to your podcast for X amount of time. And now we've booked, we're going to come see you. Can't wait to meet you in person. And then you meet in person and you feel like you know them and they know you because they've just been listening like week on week. Yeah, I a lot of, I have a lot of air time with YPN. So yeah, it's nice to actually meet people and meet people in person. And often you just see kind of see names coming up and you notice the names that keep coming up as well. So it's nice to say, Oh, hey, hey, Joanne, hey, so and so, know, but yeah, when you meet people in person, then it's interesting because then you meet them in person, then, you know, you see them again online and it's like, Oh, okay. It's becomes a, you know, like a family, like a community. and just makes it more makes it more fun really doesn't it so obviously we've got the property and entrepreneur summit the next one coming up which will be our third one and you get I guess it's like a tribe of people who you they you just become kind of part of part of this group where you are all like kind of on a similar journey and you know everyone's kind of got their own different goals and achievements to make, but you all share like similar values as well. And it's so like, I find it just like, I love these events, you know, because rather than just being outside, dare I say in the real world where you, you know, you just kind of go to gym or you even got like friends outside of property and you're like, they just don't get me. You, you're in a room where everyone gets each other. I think that's really special. Yeah. no, I love that. And actually, I'm just gonna pause on the property question just for a little bit, because I've got some of those questions I wanna ask you. But before I do that, I think it's so rare for me to be able to have conversations with people who, one, have a podcast, and two, do events, because, how do I explain this? they are interesting to do. There's a lot to it, let's say. And so what I'd actually love to talk to you about is, first of all, your podcast. And the reason I want to talk to you about it is because I get a of people at the moment who I've either seen on socials, who are starting their own podcast now, which is amazing. Or they come to me in my direct messages and they say, we're looking to start a podcast. What advice would you give? Everything like that. So when did you start your podcast, Michelle? How long has it been running for? And you know, and everything there. Gosh I guess it must be like for I don't know three or four years. We only do two a month so we've got and then a of it sporadic I think we're about 160 episodes so yeah just kind of ad hoc really and it's through YPN so you know they just said do you fancy doing some interviews? I said yeah sure you know and gave it a go absolutely loved it as you say it's really interesting to to interview people, not just in the industry, like I try and find people with a different skillset that's not necessarily like property related, but something I think would be useful to the listeners because everyone's, you know, everyone's kind of looking to achieve similar goals and wants to, whether that's, you know, practice pitching their deal or whether that's... you know, like negotiation or something like that. So, I try and kind of bring softer skills in people can come and do like more of a skillset, podcast as well. But yeah, really interesting to just have people from every level, people who've just started out and got their first deal right the way through to, you know, Daniel Priestley, which was pretty cool. So it's what I love about it is noticing themes. across different people. So, you know, you get to interview like so many people where you just think it starts to kind of stand out these patterns of what makes people succeed in their own industry and their own strategy. And yeah, so I like kind of teasing those out and as you say, digging into people's backstory and and so many people who have just come from a kind of corporate world or just a non-property world and had that leap of faith, that courage. And I've interviewed Perry, Perry Wilson, who was a taxi driver, you know, and he got to later on in life and he was looking at retirement in the face and thinking, wow, this all theirs? Like, this is, I haven't achieved what I wanted to achieve at all. And that just put a fire in his belly and he thought, I've got to do something here. I've got to change my life, even as he was approaching retirement. And so he just started saving and he just started putting money aside. He got two jobs and, and just started building a portfolio. It's incredible, really aspiring and had this goal of making a million pounds in property, whatever it was. So yeah, it's pretty cool to be able to, like, you say, it's not many people that you really meet out and about that have got these this fire, the passion so that's what I love yeah And you know, I've said this before, we're so much more than property or our titles, you know, like, I don't know about you, but when I go networking now, I'm really interested in just talking to the person and being like, how many dogs do you have? Where do you like to go on holiday? And like you're saying, it's about actually meeting people and finding out more about them, like this taxi driver, like, like others. And that's why sometimes I actually get now non-property related people on the podcast to talk about business, to talk about, mean, I had a breath work specialist that came on to say, right, this is how you can deal with overwhelm. And I find all of that so interesting because I say this to the girls all the time and guys, but the girls on the podcast. I say to them, it's about developing you as a person. You're more than just, I have a HMO and I have an SA and I have this. And it's like, okay, that's great. Happy for you. But who are you? And it's like what you said earlier, Michelle, you're like. when you were talking about your journey, you feel like yours was a lot slower than others. But that's because that's what aligned with your lifestyle. That's what aligned with who you are as a person. Whereas sometimes people will come to me when they're messaging me and saying to me, I feel like I'm not going quick enough. I feel like all these people are ahead. I feel like I need to start making money through property. And it's like, yeah, but you've got to go in the right direction. You can't just go off and think, I'm going to... do all of these things because you could lose a lot of money doing that. So it's better to almost go slow, reset and then go a little bit slower in terms of that. And these are the stories that I love to hear from people to show that you're 10 years into the journey, you've done hugely successful things, but it didn't mean that right out the starting block you were like, zoom, gone, 100 miles an hour. It's like, you don't have to be that. That's important to say. Yeah, I think when people listen to these podcasts or they just, you know, read something in magazine or they just get an Instagram kind of clip, it's easy to think, like that it's easy for that person or they've cracked it or you really just see that high level, those highlight reels. It's not real life. And like one great thing about the podcast is you can get to ask people like... I'm setting myself up here. Like really awkward questions that, you know, that people don't get asked when they're just sharing their journey because it's, yeah, you know, you're trying to cram in a, you know, 10 years of, of investing into half an hour. So of course, you know, you want to talk about successes as well. But it's important to say, you know, it's like, it's a journey and it's more about As you say, the resilience and how you can manage all the other stresses that come along and the overwhelm that is certainly, you know, it's not like I don't get any of those. I do. It's just how do you manage it? And, you know, if you've got a big enough reason why that keeps you going. But you do need tools to get through those hard times. You need to have a community, you have network, have people that you can lean on. So yeah. Yeah, I love that. And then just going back to the podcast, because you did say to me, you're like, you know, asking awkward questions. So I'm like, okay, okay, I'll ask you some questions. So for example, with my with my podcast, I am a one woman band, basically. So I record, edit, promote the lot. It's just me. For nearly 100 episodes now, with you, do you get the luxury of like having a team? Do you get to just turn up and record and then give it away to somebody? So at the beginning, and especially once I started listening back, was like, my goodness. And I'd sit there and edit out all the ums and the ahs and that time that I asked that question that I shouldn't have asked or I made myself look stupid. And I'm literally thinking about a particular podcast where I asked a really stupid question. And so I did edit them all. And then, you know, I tried asking the team to see if they could edit it, but like that's... really hard to ask somebody to edit your own interview because by the time you've explained to them which tiny bits you want editing, like of course, you know, the phone goes or something. Yes, I've got the book. I can give it to the team and say, can you just edit that out? Which is a quick edit on Veed or CapCut or whatever. But kind of quickly, and I did, I worked with Daniel Preece on his DENT program as well. And, you know, he was really talking about Progress over perfection, progress over perfection and a lot of these big guru entrepreneur people talk about the same thing. It's like just get it out there, just be prolific, just you know, it doesn't really matter. And I think I had so much going on, know, progress was just one part of everything that I was doing. I just thought they're right, you know, nobody really cares if I mess up on one thing, like so what, you know, I'm human, I don't have like, you know, every answer and I don't have every question right and... that I guess just makes me more humid. So I just gave up really pretty quick and I just thought, like unless there's something catastrophic, let's just get it out there and let's just keep recording. So does that answer your question? yeah, I love that. And you know, this happened to me last week. So for the first time ever, and I know how it happened, it's because I just got back from London and it was all just very, very chaotic. But I was recording with Holly, Scotland, interior designer last week. And we were literally 20 minutes into the episode, it was going really, really well. And then my screen popped up to go, you're about to run out of battery on your laptop. And I was like, my God, it's not plugged in and she's talking. What do I do? And literally my charger was in the other room and I was like, we're not re-recording this, we're not re-recording it. I was like, Holly, keep talking, I'm gonna go and get my charger. And so, poor thing must have just been like a deer in headlights, because I was like, right, just talk. Yeah, it's yeah, I guess it's all happened and and you remember, you know, 10 years of teaching you've got 30 student 30 teenagers sitting in front of you and Everything that could have gone wrong has always gone wrong I still have nightmares about you know, the turning up and the tech not working and you know, you've got no lesson plan in front of you and You just yeah, I guess I guess it's just them adapting and and go with the flow as well, as you say, know, if something happens, the phone goes or the laptop charger goes, then yeah, I just kind of think, oh well, I guess, yeah. how we do it. then events as well, for example. So you do the Property Entrepreneur Summit as well and YPN does that. And of course you've got other events as well. Again, things can go wrong all the time. And of course I put my own events on as well and we want it to be perfect. we want the launch to be a success. And we're like, my God, I've put my blood, and tears into this. Please someone buy a ticket. We obviously know how amazing it's gonna be. but it's actually trying to like get that across and portray it and of course once you do the first one people then know what to expect for the next and it sort of snowballs from there but I mean what's your experience of kind of putting on events for anyone who wants to do that? I mean what would your advice be? back to the teaching days I had, so I was head of year for year seven and the biggest event I did was like a five day residential retreat for 220 children. So, you know, and I absolutely loved it. yeah, just all the logistics of, but like, obviously I didn't, I wasn't doing it all myself, but in terms of Who was doing what, what are they getting out of it? Managing all of that. Trips abroad as well with, you know, taking whatever 20 kids to France, not for the faint hearted. And then again, the property world, I started out, one of the very first things that I did was set up just an informal event, networking meeting, because I was going to the traditional ones everyone knows about, but I enjoyed the 10 minute. toilet break, you know, where everyone like trying to get a quick chat with somebody in between speakers. And I was like, I just want to have two hours of this. Like, can we not just do this though? So I set up literally come and meet me in the bar. There was no cost, no speakers. It was just a pure networking two hours. And I loved it. And I did that for four years and then COVID hit and kind of tried to go online and then ended up doing the Chester pin meeting. a couple of years as well taking on that which was obviously more structured and it was all you know the the structure was given to me rather than me giving it but I love the challenge of that as well and it was really interesting I got lots of compliments about how well it was running it was all you know on clockwork and and well organized so like I enjoy that in-person event and I like the the challenge of making sure people are getting the value out of it. They're coming, they're spending their time. I want to make sure that people feel really welcome. And one thing we did with obviously the Property and Entrepreneurs Summit, like we set up a Facebook group and we had our own members from YPN and we connected them beforehand so that for people, I think most people don't really like turning up to an event on their own. you get... the people who do, but I think that's a smaller percentage than people who kind of, you know, it's always kind of a bit awkward. You turn up to this place. It's a, you know, you don't know if you're going to know anybody and what to say or, you know, people are to be at different levels or, so yeah, so that was important. Making sure like people were connected beforehand so that they came and they knew, you know, we had people meeting up. and you had like photos, hey, know, YPN on tour, here we are. And, and just reached out to people, people who knew me, they could go up and say hello. But then what? So just trying to make it, you know, having, having groups in different rooms so that smaller groups, it's not kind of just in the main room was important as well. Yeah. So I love events. Yeah, I love that. I was listening to you and I was thinking, I set up something really similar to that when you were just speaking. So I used to go to a lot of these property networking events. They used to have two speakers, which I still think is too much, but two speakers. And then you used to have literally about 10 minutes to their network, or you had to stay till 10 PM at night when you're knackered to then network and not be at your best. And that's what used to happen. So I actually think having two speakers in any networking event is too much. That's just my opinion, unless it's a... really long day. I'm talking about these sort of really ones from 6.30 till about 9. So I started Dorset Property Network, which was what you just said, meet me in a bar and let's connect and got that out and it did really well. But like most things you get, it comes in waves. know, one day you might get five people turn up, one day you might get 16, one day you might get two, one day you might get 12. Like it literally is just sporadic in terms of school holidays and everything like that. So, yeah, but I start, I did that and I sort of handed the reins over to someone that I thought could really, really sort of supercharge it forward. But exactly that, just networking, networking at its best. And you're right, a lot of people don't want to go to networking on their own. You know, I think sometimes I forget that because, because I'm the type of person that is okay to go networking on my own, I sometimes forget, hold on, there are other people who aren't okay with that. And so we need to make sure that they feel welcome. So for example, for the retreat, I set up a WhatsApp group for everybody that comes that they can all meet each other beforehand and exactly like you just said, because it just creates that community and also makes them feel a lot more at ease about them coming. But yeah. can she always read? Okay. just a day. So it's going to go from nine o'clock in the morning to eight p.m. at night because dinner's included as well. However, however, I have received countless messages of asking me, like, Athena, when are you doing a two to three day retreat abroad or even in the UK, what's going on? And I'm like, guys, like, be patient. There's a lot to it. There's a lot to it. work, logistics and how many have you done now? Well, my big retreats, I've done three. No, one, two, three, three, yes. Yeah, and I'm sure you're finding like the more you do, the easier it is in terms of logistics and you've got the systems there. And that was the case with the summits as well as like, you you turn up for the first time and you don't know the venue and how anything's going to work. And there's a coffee machine in the corner that's like going off while the speakers going, my goodness. So there's definitely an element of the more you do, the more systemized you can get, and then you can kind of be a bit more flexible. So It's quite frustrating because you know, if it was just me, you know, on my own kind of creating these things, I kind of come up with all these crazy ideas. But you know, you've got to have your business head on it as well. Like there's no budget to have like, you know, all these kind of fancy balloons and chocolates and everyone's goodie bags and that kind of thing. So it's really hard to kind of manage that experience and having all these great ideas with, you know, like you've got to make sure that you're in profit and it's not going to lose money, with everyone having a good time as well. you know what this was actually a problem that I had at my girls and property gala so I've spoken to some people about this it's never been like massively public knowledge I never did like a post about it on social media and so really only the podcasters know this but I lost money at the girls and property gala I actually lost money I lost a lot of money and the reason I lost money was because It was bad business. It was really bad business where basically what I did was I said, Oh, do you know what? Like tickets to the retreat in April, I charged 250 pounds. That sounds about right. I'm not going to bother checking what the rates are for Christmas. I'm just going to go with 250 and just sell tickets that it will be fine. No problem. So that's exactly what I did. 250 anyway, of course, because it's Christmas, the day delegate rate was completely different and more expensive. Every single thing had a zero attached to the price tag because it was Christmas. And me being me, Michelle, so my background is events and advertising and marketing. And I remember saying to people, they were like, you're just gonna have to cut costs on the event. You're just gonna have to make. An event and and you know what? I would rather have not put on the event and given everybody a refund Than put on a bad event. It isn't in my soul. Yeah, it's not in my soul So I decided I made a conscious decision I said the events going ahead and the event is going ahead the way I want the event to go ahead I will I was fully aware early on I was gonna lose a lot of money, but I continued it I was like I want my jazz band. I want my stage. I want my 360 booth I want all of my videographers there I want this, I want this, I want this. And I literally went into like wedding mode of being like, right, I don't care what it costs, this is what I want. Because I just knew that like for me, what my values are, and this is the only thing I think that we can hold onto as individuals, my values are a person is paid 250 pounds for a ticket. They're gonna get a 250 pound experience and that's all I care about at the end of the day. Yes, we've got to make money. Yes, we've got to live. But I know that those people who came to the gala will be with me for life. I know that. And so you've almost got to weigh those up. But my God, Michelle, like, was it stressful? Were there tears? Absolutely. Like events are hard work, really hard work. know, a lot of people just, you know, they book at the last minute because that's nature and they want to like see what they're doing and things. when you're, you know, in our case, we've got 400 seats. it's quite stressful, but soon, you know, this time it's about tweaking it as well and learning from each one. And this time we decided like, unfortunately, we're not going to run the VIP room, which was brilliant. was like a great experience. We had the private speakers and the special badges and all that but it just added too much to the cost and it just made it more stressful. we've instead lowered the standard ticket price now so it's more affordable for everyone, it's like £99 for the day and we just thought we'll keep it simple, just keep it all simple. Yes, there's lots of ideas and fancy things we could do but... The most important thing is people come and have a great day with the main speakers and they get to meet everybody and it's just a refreshing environment and it's nice, just community atmosphere. yeah, you have to kind of work out, don't you, what's, like, if it's just worth it. And you don't want it to be too stressful. No, exactly. And this is why I love the fact that you do the events and podcasts, because it's so wonderful to have like a refreshing conversation. And then my last thing, just to finish off with Michelle, is when we spoke originally about you kind of getting into property and you're now 10 years sort of journey in, what would your advice be now, now that you're 10 years in, now that you know everything? Like, what would your advice be for somebody starting out in regard to what your first step was? Like, would you advise they took a similar step to you or a different step to you? Yeah, so I definitely don't know everything. Just to make the record straight there. And I wouldn't advise anybody to like follow my steps because as I said mentioned before, you know, everyone is in a very unique situation. And that's something that is really, really clear for me now that there isn't one size that fits all. So I would say to people, you know, work out. what it is you're looking to achieve. Like get clear on your resources, how much, you know, if you're in a position where you don't have the money to invest, then you're going to have to sacrifice something or you're going to have to get creative. but you need to have something, you need to either have time or money, so if you haven't got one of those things then you're to need to be creative, either find somebody else who does or invest in yourself and learn how to do things creatively. think putting yourself around people who are in similar positions where they've achieved things in a similar way that you're going to need to do that, so if you don't have that part of money like just spend time and that doesn't mean necessarily in person, you know, could be like these podcasts, like look at people who have, who have achieved success without a part of money, you know, they've had to be created, they had to do things differently. think, you know, everyone's got this quite a unique set of resources, time available, money, contacts, education, transferable skills, like what they, you know, what one person wants to achieve. in the next six months to get them out of day job is going to be very different than somebody who is looking to retire in five years and they, you know, need a pension pot. Like this is just endless scenarios. So I would say invest in yourself as much as possible, you know, like read some books that are going to help you stay, stay plugged into a community. like obviously you've got a fantastic community there. So stay plugged in, just keep going until something works. And it's going to, if you're doing it that way now, I kind of say, you if you want to kind of, I'm based up north, so if I wanted to get London, I could walk or I could, you know, swim around the island. could get a train, I could fly in a jet. Now, if you've got the money to afford, one-to-one coaching and you can get your private jet and get to London in half an hour, great, right? But if you haven't, then you're gonna have to do things slower or differently. You're have to do something different or slower. And it might feel really slow and painful for a long time. You know, the first year, I'm thinking, I'm putting all this effort in and nothing's happening. Um, you don't turn up to these events, but I'm not, it's like, it's that frustration because you feel like you're putting effort in and you're making sacrifices, but you're not getting, you know, the set of keys that you can put on Facebook or Instagram, whatever. So like measure the right things. You know, how many phone calls are you making? Like what are your income generating tasks? What is going to move the needle for you? And like really focus on those because you don't have the luxury of you know, getting a team in or, or, know, having the pot of money so that you can just go out and invest. You're going to need to do things differently. um, yeah, really focus on that because it's too easy just to say, Oh, you know, I'm, I've, I've got my side hustle and property. I'm on Fiverr trying to figure out my logo for my business card. I forget it. Just forget it. Like get your business card when you get your first property, right? You don't need it. Like, what do you need in order to get that deal? You need to. pick up the phone, get uncomfortable and start contacting agents or investors or whoever it is, landlords and they're the conversations that are going to have the most impact. So, yeah, get clear on what's important. I think it's a good place to wrap up. That was perfect. Absolutely perfect, Michelle. Thank you. And I think the action step we're all going to give everybody today to take away is go read Rich Dad Poor Dad if you haven't read it. It sounds cliche. I'm sure you've heard many people say it before, but that was one of the first books Michelle ever read. It's one of the first books I ever read. And it's one of the first books a lot of people ever read. And it's all about shifting your mindset. So if you haven't read it yet, that would be my action step for you today. Go and read it and DM me or Michelle and let us know what you think about it. Yeah. You know, just get into it. I've obviously, you know, requests on social media all the time, but let me know that you've come through Athena's podcast and, um, because otherwise, you know, it's just, uh, one of thousands of DMS and not DMS, but you know, like friend requests you get. So it's always nice to know where people are coming from and, um, just, you know, come and say hi. And of, of course, you know, with YPN, a great place to start as well as, uh, just tapping into our community. We've got our own YPM plus now, which is a fantastic resource for people who are just starting out. We've got lots of every Monday. We've got a live session. So we've got a deal clinic, we've got networking meeting, we've got mortgage and tax advice, and we have got a coaching session as well. So, and of course you get the magazine included. It's 24 pound a month and it's a great way to tap into a community and get your questions answered and really get a good feel for what's out there and, you know, just, yeah. get your questions answered. I love it. You beat me to it. My question was going to be where can they find you? What resources have you got? And you were like, there you go, answered. So social media, are you best on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram? Yeah, Facebook, I'm on all of it. And yeah, at some point I'll, you know, I kind of open the messages randomly, but yeah, probably Instagram or Facebook. I think they have the usual, but yeah, just drop me a message and say hi. And, you know, at 3 YPM, we've got lots of resources as well. it's pointing in the right direction. Yay! thank you Michelle, thank you for coming on. I loved it. I knew I wanted to get you on to do this episode because it's just authentic, real, behind the scenes but also some really great tips for people wanting to move forward as well. And then as always if you want to find me I'm Athena Dobson underscore official, Girls and Property on Instagram and as I said we've got 50 % of tickets now left to the Girls and Property retreat on Friday 25th of April at Penny Manor entering. So yes, come and find me, DM me if you want some more information. And then I've also got my community as Michelle just said. So come and join, we're 85 strong now. And my next meeting we've got online is Tuesday, 18th of February. So yeah, come and join and join the party. But Michelle, thank you so much for your time. Really, really appreciate it. And everybody have the most amazing week and we will see you soon. Thank you. Thanks, bye.