Resisting the Shiny Penny Trap: Staying Focused in Property with Jackie Tomes

In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast, Athena Dobson sits down with Jackie Tomes to talk about staying focused and intentional in your property journey—especially in the early stages, when the temptation of ‘shiny penny syndrome’ can easily throw you off track.

Jackie shares her personal experiences in property investment, including how she navigated distractions, overcame burnout, and learned the importance of aligning her business decisions with her deeper motivations. Together, she and Athena explore the emotional side of property, talking candidly about self-doubt, vulnerability, and the pressure to chase every new opportunity that comes your way.

They reflect on the importance of choosing a clear path, committing to it, and not getting sidetracked by every exciting strategy or trend that pops up. Jackie’s story is a powerful reminder that knowing your ‘why’ and being honest about your strengths and values is what keeps you grounded when the ‘shiny penny syndrome’ starts to creep in.

This episode of my favourites as it is a refreshing look at the balance between ambition and self-compassion, the value of community, and the freedom that comes from focusing on what truly matters in your investment journey.

Connect with Jackie and listen to her own podcast via the link below

Property Lifestyle Mastery Podcast: https://bit.ly/plm-podcast

How to get involved with the Girls in Property Community 👇

🎟️ Join our Workshops

👩 Join our Community

🎧Listen to other Episodes

Thank you to our main sponsor Kim McGinley from VIBE Finance

GET IN TOUCH

📷 Instagram

📧 girlsinpropertypod@gmail.com

-
Don’t Miss Out! Click here to claim your FREE access to my Mindset Accelerator Programme. Start developing the mindset you need to become an outstanding property investor today! 🚀


Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to another episode of the Girls in Property podcast. So, hi everyone. How's everyone today? We are here back with Girls in Property. And do know what? I was just saying to this person before they were coming on the podcast, first of all, they are tuning in from a really exciting location, which we're going to tell you all about. But also we were saying, do you know what's so lovely is I start my Monday mornings always with this podcast. I record the podcast. So, mornings just with good energy, good energy, good people and good vibes. And that's what this person today is here all about to talk about. And I met this person a year ago, funny enough, at the Property Entrepreneur Summit and she came on, she spoke on stage, she literally ran up to the stage with all of this energy, spoke absolutely incredibly. And I felt like a nodding dog the whole way through her presentation going, I can completely relate, I can completely understand. And I just loved her energy and I couldn't wait to get her on this podcast. And we finally made it happen. So today I would love to introduce Jackie and it's Jackie. Um, remind me of your surname. It's Jeff. Tomes. There we go. Tomes. There we go. Jackie times. Do you know what's so funny? I even said to you before I came on this podcast, I was like, do you know what, Jackie, I just need to double check on your surname because I get this wrong all the time for my dyslexia and I'm probably going to get it wrong again. And guess what? I got it wrong. That's so good, doesn't matter. Times like times. Tomes like Holmes. Love it. Fantastic. And Jackie, welcome to the Girls and Property podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Athena. It's so nice to be here. We connected a year ago and I'm just really excited to sit down and find out, connect more and be part of your world for the next hour. Yeah, amazing. And let's just let everybody know, whereabouts are you at this moment within the world and the universe? Right now we are in the south of France, parked up in our motorhome in some random part of the French countryside. We've just been to a vineyard over the weekend. So yeah, we've just been bouncing around France since middle of March, finished off the ski season, headed south to the sun. It hasn't been totally sunny. I think actually England has been sunnier at various points, which is a bit annoying. But ultimately, yeah, it's a wonderful part of the world to be in and to be just consistently adventuring around. Isn't that what it's all about? Literally. And you know, I always say this, if you were to cut me in half, travel is in my DNA through and through far more than property is like travelers in my blood and my soul. But what I love is I get lots of different people on this podcast who sort of tune in from different places. I actually had a Julie Talbot who tuned in from Nepal. She is so cool. She was up a mountain in Nepal and I was like, Julie, you better have good wifi signal. And she's like, mate, check this out and sent me a screenshot. of this incredible wifi signal up a mountain in Nepal. I was like, wow, I know. And you're, you are my first ever podcast guests from a motor home. there you go. Yeah. It's perfect. I'm here for the random, but it's not random. It's you. It's not random at all, Jackie. It's you showing that you are living and breathing the life that you choose to live, which is a life of genuine freedom and being in a vineyard and having the ability to you know, go and travel and isn't that like why we do it? You know, when you speak to most people, it's time freedom. Yeah. get sucked in somehow into this property world where we suddenly start working way too hard and like comparing ourselves to others and trying to do all these other stuff, which we're like, if you step back and go, why did I bother doing this in the first place? It was not because I wanted to be going to like networking events five nights a week or never able to leave the UK or being stuck to my investment location. But that is inevitably the world we kind of get sucked into. And I think you just got to find that balance of what do you want to get out of the industry? What part of it do you enjoy and love? And what part are you doing it to really serve your life and other things that you care to do? Hmm. Do you know what? I love that you just said that actually that really made me reflect and really made me think and what you just said, because you're so right. It's about, I love what you just said there. You're like, what is it that you want to get out of the industry? You know, that's such an important thing to say, forget about what everyone else is doing. What do you want to get out of it? And it's funny actually, because people ask me a lot about property. Um, and you know, I used to do a lot to do with rent to rent and getting into the industry. I had buy to let's before that. I then wanted to build up my cashflow. I then got rid of all of my rent to rent properties because it literally took over my life. I burnt out, I didn't really enjoy it. And now I think actually what I want to get out of the property industry is people. Like I love people. love connecting people. I love understanding what makes people tick and why they invested in the way that they did. And for me, I'm now thinking about my next investment Jackie for myself and people are always like, Athena, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I think for me, mine is about wealth generation now. I don't think it's about the quick cash. I think it's about slow and steady for me. And for me, that's going to represent in the South, I'm from Bournemouth, Jackie. So for me, it's going to be kind of like flips in my area. And I've actually seen one that came up two days ago that I was like, oh, OK, you look interesting. And I thought I might give that a call this week. But also for me personally, I've been learning a lot about land as well. And I always thought, no, I never want to get into land development, but I've got a really good relationship with uh land profits, El Ahadi. And actually, the more and more I learn about it, for me, the more and more I think to myself, I think I'm in the right stage of my journey after having done a couple of different strategies to go, actually, I think that maybe I don't want to get involved anymore with tenants and with the renter's rights bills coming in and maybe land is the right way. But it's this idea of shiny penny syndrome, isn't it, that we're going to talk about today, isn't it, Jackie? Because we all know about it. We've all been there. Yeah, I've been there multiple times and I think it's got many different layers to it. Like I said, like I've got a very deep understanding of shiny penny syndrome in property investing and how that plays out for people and how it plays out for people. early stage versus more experienced people. Like I've got a really good understanding of all of that. But you have to learn it. We've got other businesses now too. And it means different things in those areas as well. So I think it's, I think it's probably a never ending journey of understanding that which is good. keeps a life interesting, but yes, in property, it's a massive problem. And I think a lot of people end up quitting in property because shiny penny really takes them down. I've had some miserable times along the way when I've been drawn in by wanting to start the next thing. So we started doing buy-to-let that was almost by accident. Like before I got into like doing any property courses or anything like that, I didn't know there was anything more sexy than buy-to-let. And so I got into doing buy-to-let, did the first one. It went well, started to learn to raise finance, then started to go and do more buy-to-lets. And then I think this is where, you know, really gets into a really, it's everything has a good and bad to it, right? And I think the amazing thing about like, property networking and property courses is that there's an amazing access to information, an amazing access to inspiring people, to great communities of people. And that's amazing. But the downside of it is that comparison, like how you start comparing yourself to others, how you start thinking that what other people are doing, if it's that better than what you're doing, are those other, I call them business models, so service accommodation, land. buy to let, HMOs, whatever it may be, I call those business models because I think the fact that we call them strategy and property makes us think that we have a strategy when we've chosen a model, but we haven't, we've just got the very first part of that because ultimately a strategy is what is gonna help us to create the life that we want through property. And just doing HMOs is not automatically gonna give you a life of freedom where you can go on holiday all the time. So that distinction for me is part of the problem that there's not a deep enough understanding about that. So yeah, when I then started to get drawn into looking at buy-to-lets compared to people who were doing HMOs or quick cash flow from rent to rent or massive chunks of cash from commercial to resi conversions, I was like, what the hell am I doing with these poxy little singlet where I'm making a few hundred quid a month, making 20, 30 grand of capital uplift. And I started to think everything else looks better than what I'm doing. So that was the beginning of the shiny penny monster really taking hold. And I think the tax... of that distraction is so huge and I don't think enough people really necessarily acknowledge or talk about it because ultimately the people who are doing lots of different things look very impressive it looks like a lot of amazing stuff is happening and because there's not necessarily a huge amount of authenticity within the property world you don't hear the downside of what's really going on behind the scenes and that's a massive problem. It's a huge problem. Absolutely. And what I love there, Jackie, is you sort of gave us a little bit of a taster into you and sort of your journey and kind of where you started and things. And I think this is so important actually, just before we get into the crux of it, because I have so many questions I want to ask you about this, because I have had shiny penny syndrome. I of course started my journey three years ago and you know, still going through my journey. I'm very proud of that as well. And hopefully a lot of others can relate to that. just go just to rewind a little bit, just go back to your story. So how did you actually Okay. you started off with your buy-to-let and then then sort of talk to me about your shiny penny journey that you had through it. So, my mum and my stepdad, I'd seen them, they had a couple of buy to let properties and they'd done a couple of flips. So I'd kind of got this awareness of what they were doing. I, at the time, was in my early 20s. I was working full time in London and I've never been very good at being told what to do by other people. I learned more and more that that is deep actually within me and I was struggling being in a job where I was holding to lots of other people and couldn't be really autonomous and it kind of came to a head for me. In 2013 on a ski trip in the French Alps, like La Tanya in the Courcheval Valley in the French Alps and it was just like staying in this tiny little average apartment in La Tanya and had a week of annual leave and it was just like... I just loved it. was me and my now husband Dave. And we had this wonderful week of just like hanging out, blue skies, sunshine. And I was like, this is amazing. But then as the week starts to come to an end, you start to get the like sinking feeling starts to come up in the pit of your stomach. Cause you know, you've got to go back and do the thing that you wouldn't necessarily choose to be doing, but that you've got to do. And so that was the moment of like decision. It was like, I'm gonna start investing in property. And hopefully if I'm really diligent and I save really hard, I'll be able to get a property. Maybe if I can do that every year for like five or 10 years, I'll eventually have a small portfolio. I've never been a luxury kind of girl. I'm kind of like freedom is more important to me than luxury stuff. So was like, I don't need to have a lot of money. And particularly at first, if I can have enough money to quit my job and sit at home and eat baked beans, that is good enough for me as long as I don't have to do what anyone else tells me. So that's when it began. And yeah, then it's the trial and error of like trying to make it work, trying to figure out how to pull together the money. And I got a second job saved up. I figured out that at the time, I don't know if you could do this anymore really, but I started, I got an interest free credit card. I started doing all of my spending on the interest free credit card and instead saved the money that I'd otherwise buy my like food shopping and travel and stuff with. And I put that into a savings account. I started cycling to work. back each day which was an hour there and an hour back. I stopped going out, I stopped going on holiday, I just cut everything apart from the bare essentials and just saved up and after about 18 months of area research, viewings, putting in offers, seeing what other ways I could create more cash from not very much money, I completed on the first property which was just a buy-to-let uh in a place called Eerith in southeast London, sort of just a bit further in than Dartford. one bedroom flat, which needed a full refurb, hadn't been really even clean for about 20 years, it was disgusting. So bought that for 108 and a half thousand pounds with a 15 % deposit, which was about 18,000 pounds. And then did a refurb for about seven ish grand, which I also put on a credit card. Yeah, and I got the first deal done. was like looking... It's just so interesting as you go through in property how you can't consistently against problems. Like there's never not going to be problems, but just how you evolve to be able to handle different levels of problems. And I can remember on that first deal, just like we needed the water pressure wasn't enough to have a shower and we needed to get a water pump and it became this whole massive thing. I remember crying about it. It was so stressful because I was like going to have to spend an extra like 200 quid or 300 quid or whatever getting this water pump sorted. But I think about that now I'm like get a grip woman like what the hell was like wrong with you but that was like a big problem for me at that point and now I'm you know I'm sure I'm replacing water pumps all over the place in properties and I don't even know about it and like that's just the the evolution so yeah that's how it all kind of began and it was good in a way in a way I guess this good and bad stuff about like property training I didn't do any courses do that first property, which was bad because I definitely made mistakes I otherwise wouldn't have made, but also good in the sense that I didn't have anyone else in my ear saying, oh, wouldn't HMO be better or, shouldn't you do a land deal or whatever else? Like it just was, my world was smaller, so there was less options. So therefore it was simpler to just keep on that path. And then once we then started to learn how to raise finance and to be from property courses, then em Then I had enough momentum still from the singlets to keep going doing that. Whilst then the undercurrent of distraction, comparison, looking at what everyone else was doing, then started to come in. The more that I got out there to courses and mentorships and networking, it just became stronger and stronger. Yeah, that's really the second. no, maybe I'd say that's the third phase. The first phase is like... pulling together the funds to get the first property done. The second phase is realising that I can raise finance and start doing many more single let deals. And then the third phase, which starts to come in as an undercurrent during the second phase is distraction, starting to look at lots of different things. And then just the progress really started to slow down. Isn't it interesting because I have such a similar experience, different, but very similar. So I bought my first buy to let with no course, no distractions, nothing like that. I literally just, I lost my job during COVID. I was a travel consultant. I'd saved up money because the commissions that I received, I saved, I saved. I was just that girl. I don't know what I was saving for, but I was just saving. And then I had 25 % deposit to buy this flat in Bournemouth that Literally, I was like, yeah, just buy a flat in Bournemouth, why not? And I don't know, there's something in your body and brain that just makes you do things that you don't even know what you're doing, basically. And I went through all those emotions exactly the same as you, Jackie. I had a massive issue with the sewage system where the owner, a week before we were about to exchange, said to me, a week before, she goes, well, this is your problem. I'm not paying for this. This is your problem. And I went, no, no, no, this is your problem. And she was like, well, I'm going to pull the whole deal if you don't sort this sewage issue. Okay. that somebody was treating me in this way. And my God, I had it all, literally it was so emotional, but I did actually still complete and sorted it. And actually annoyingly did pay for the sewage issue, but just to get it over the line, which you know, it's one of those things. Oh. think about the amount of stress and like time that you waste in arguing sometimes it's just we're kind of just doing it so that we feel like we win somehow but that doesn't really matter let's let it go know on reflection. Absolutely. And then, and then funny enough, then I decided to go and do some courses. Then I learned about rent to rent. Then I did rent to rent HMOs. Then I started to learn about rent to rent service accommodations. So went into that, then started to learn about HMO conversions and went, Oh, hold on a minute. And then, and then, do you know what I had? And I think a lot of people then have this is paralysis because you have so many different options that then come your way. And you have this pot of money that is so important to you, this pot of money that you've worked hard for, you've saved, you've done all your workings that you can do for it. And then you get really scared that you don't want to make the mistake because of shiny penny syndrome and too many voices. And I think that's where a lot of listeners sometimes get to is they go, Oh my God, I don't, I want to jump, but I don't know if it's the right way to jump because so many people are telling me different things. And so many people have an opinion in this industry. Like people who have been in it for a long, long time will say to you, buy Tollette is dead, don't buy any buy Tollette, the renter's rights bill's coming in, you're all gonna get screwed over, we're getting out of the game. Another person will tell you HMO conversions is the best thing since sliced bread. Another person will tell you HMO conversions is the worst thing they've ever done. It's a minefield Jackie, isn't it? Literally. You're right, everyone's got something to say. And I think it's amazing in many respects that we have access to all these experiences. But really, it's how we then start to filter those experiences through our own lens and not getting drawn into other people's stuff. it's almost like, yeah, like I definitely, I just, don't, I maybe for me, I wasn't necessarily analysis paralysis that I got to, but I got to the point that I was trying to do so many different models all at once that the working hours just expanded and expanded. So many more viewings when you're trying to do all these different things, rent to rent, HMO, service accommodation, flips, whatever it may be, all these different things. And they all need maybe a slightly different area. don't necessarily work in the same location. So then you're operating in multiple different areas all at the same time. And so the workload just expands and you... don't have enough hours to do it, you don't have enough cash flow to pay for people to come and help you because none of it's working well enough yet. And so for me, it just became working harder and harder and slogging longer and longer. And weirdly, the results getting worse than from when I was just doing single lets. And even though yes, single lets were lower cash flow than HMOs, the fact that I knew how to do them meant I could do a number of them at the same time because I was replicating the same thing, which means you can do the same build spec, the same mortgage product on refinance. There was just so many decisions that you don't have to make. So even though ultimately it was lower profit overall, it actually was easier, better and less stuff was going wrong. Yeah, maybe some water pumps were going wrong, but it was the water pumps were not touching me anymore. Cause I'm like, I've solved that problem before. It's not even a problem. It's just a, that's what we do in this situation. So for me, I don't know, I feel like you kind of almost have to get to a bit of a breaking point to be willing to accept that the shiny pennies got you and like we all want to think that we can do it, right? Like, you know, all these other people, they've tried to do it but they weren't strong enough to carry on going and make it all work but I kind of maybe somehow think that I can and you kind of need to get to the point of breaking point, I think, of burnout, overwhelm, whatever it may be, to make you... for us to humble ourselves and go, you know what? I can't do all of this. Like I am just one human. I maybe haven't necessarily made all the right decisions. Let me just burn all these existing decisions that I've made to the ground and step back and go, why did I do this in the first place? And that's like, I was so lucky. Like I had a, I had lots of property mentors, which had been great at firing me up and getting me taking action. But in my experience, property mentors weren't focused enough on. what was the outcome that the individual was trying to get from it? it became quite generic is too harsh a word, but kind of a long way. I was a bit too generic in this is what I think. So therefore that's what you should do. And therefore everyone's trying to do what everyone else is telling them to do. But if it's not relevant to the person, it's never going to actually work. I am for me, I had a business coach and that was right when I had my like burnout, fell off a cliff moment of trying to do too many different things for too long and I couldn't keep going anymore. or I cried at my mentorship thing. I turned up, someone was like, how are you? And I just like cried in front of everyone. It was like mortifying. And, but this business coach who was a friend of a friend, guy called Elliot Kay, he presented himself to me. And once he had, he didn't have that experience of property that my property mentors had. What he did have was like a openness and a kindness and an ability to listen to what I wanted. and ask me questions and respond accordingly. And that's when things really started to shift. Cause he was like, why are you doing this? And I was like, just want to go on holiday. And he's like, how's that going? And I was like, working seven days a week, 15 hours a day. He's like, okay, so it's clearly not working out for you. So what like, let's be specific about what it actually is that you want. And it was the first time also that Dave and I had done kind of like a... coaching together, like I did all the property mentorship by myself for the first time that Dave came in, because really it was a collective decision for us both doing this together. What do we collectively want as our outcome from this? We were like, we want to go on lots of holidays. That's why we did this. That's why we were in the French Alps skiing, saying we want more of this. I want more of that. And so we sat down and we said we want to go on lots of holidays. And that wasn't a good enough answer for Elliot. He was like, what is lots of holidays? And like, that was just such a simple but powerful question. And me and Dave turned to each other and we discussed it. We were like, going on holiday, maybe every four weeks, maybe that would be a bit excessive. Maybe every eight weeks might be a bit long. Like, yeah, if we could have a business, if we could have properties. that would mean that we could go on holiday every six weeks. And they don't have to be luxury holidays. They could be camping or going to visit my mum who lives in Cyprus. They don't have to be expensive, but they have to be regular every six weeks. And that's how this concept behind holiday every six weeks was born. And from that moment on, everything started going through that lens. Will this decision help me to go on holiday every six weeks or move me further away from it? Will those people who are trying to sell me on the fact that I should be doing this new thing? Will the decision to say yes to that move me closer or further away from holiday every six weeks? And it's such a simple thing, but the best things often are loads of stuff started to fall away. And there was loads of stuff that I had kind of hung on to that was not in alignment with what I really wanted. And it just started to fall away the more that that happened. And as we then started to look at what we were doing, realized how many different models we were trying to make happen. you know, we're trying to get into developments, we're trying to do flips, all these different things. When we then started to look at those and go, why am I trying to get into doing massive developments? Is it an ego thing? Like, do I just want to be cool? Like being cool was not in my vision. Going home every six weeks was in my vision. I'll be really uncool as long as I can do that. And you start to then kind of question your decisions through your own lens of success and start to let go of everyone else's. which then started to get rid of a load of noise, clear out a load of time. And then ultimately, then landed on, whereas we'd done single lets at first, buying leasehold flats in Southeast London. We then after loads of research and analysis decided to move areas because the reason, one of the reasons I've got more distracted was because single lets had stopped working. Like we'd had our window of opportunity where the price versus rent had worked. So we chose a new area, which was Margate and buying blocks of flats. And then we moved into the next phase and started to do many more deals with much less work and the holiday every six weeks, even though they were very simple, they started to happen. There you go. Have you noticed that I have been nodding along like literally this whole way? Like I did that time a year ago at the Property Entrepreneur Summit. I'm just sitting here like, yep, Jackie. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? I actually think this podcast has come at the perfect time for me because, you know, I'm still in my journey. I've always said this. I'm not a millionaire, Jackie. Nowhere near. Literally, I'm not even a... I'm an Iliya, like I'm nothing, do I? Like I literally aren't even a fraction of the way there. And so for me, it's like, I'm still part in my journey, which I'm so proud of. And I'm still thinking to myself, why am I doing what I'm doing? I still have this question that I ask myself every single day. And sometimes I get lost, Jackie. I get lost all the time. And I think that I'm meant to do these things exactly as you just said it, to get and become part of Okay. the cool club, be noticed in the industry, to have a name in the industry. But you're 100 % right. Not once in my entire life have I ever been cool. Ever. Ask anyone to describe me and they will never use the word cool, alright? I'm the most uncool person you've possibly met in your entire life. So why the hell am I trying to be cool? I don't want to be cool. I want to go on holiday every month. Absolutely, Jackie, I'm with you all the way, literally. I said at the property retreat, I said to the girls, girls, guess how many holidays I've got coming up? Because I'm like the travel girl, Jackie, that's my life, has always been my life. I was a travel consultant for seven years. And they were shouting out numbers like five, 10, and I went zero. I have zero holidays booked. And that was like, like really not holidays. Let me reframe. Places where I could even just work abroad. Like places where I could change my scenery from literally the mundane scenery that I have every day. Just anything, literally like you said, does it have to be luxury? Does it have to be anything? Just something. And so me being me, literally after the retreat, I said to my mother who I go on holiday with all the time, because mum's the only person who was like, I'm with you, where are we going? Tell me. And so we booked literally Lisbon for four nights. And as soon as I booked it, I had this... wave of relief to go, my God, something to look forward to. And you're right. Everything you just said is spot on. And I wish more people, Jackie, would just talk like you in this industry. I really do. You're so fantastic and so inspiring and what you're saying, because this is what mentoring is all about. Now I have had it. Now I mentor Jackie. I actually help other people because not because I advertise the fact that I mentor, because people come to me and say, you know, I love your podcast. I love what you stand for. Can you help me? That's very different to putting yourself out there to go, at me, I'm the dog's bollocks. No, I don't think that at all. But you said something beautiful, which I want to really reiterate. Some people may think, Athena's only been in the industry for three years, how could she possibly mentor anybody? I can mentor someone because I'm still on my journey. And I actually understand exactly what that person is going through and can relate to what that person is going to. I'm with sure everyone will nod their head and agree with me who's ever done a discovery call with me, I will ask them why do they want to do something? What is it that they want out of life? What is it that they want to achieve? What is it that they do? What are their resources at the moment? If you have a nine to five full-time job and you're telling me you want to do XYZ, what the hell is your plan in order to do that? Because you better, you need to survive it as well, you know? And this is where I think This is where my superpower is. I might not be a millionaire. I might not have done every single development and trick in the book, but I listen to people and I understand people and I think that's my superpower. And so when you just said that, that really resonated with me because I was like, if you want someone to listen and actually feel you and try and help to understand you and why you want to do something, then I'm your girl, basically. And you're someone's girl. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's, you will be a better mentor to people who you are closer in journey to. Like for me, mentoring someone who is just starting out, I cannot truly remember it. It's too far long ago. Like all of these stories, like I've shared them many, many times and they're really like helpful and inspiring. But for me, I'm so far removed from that. the general, like for me, I'm like the water pump. I don't want to hear about the water pump. Like that is too long ago. I cannot relate to that anymore. Like I'm not, you will be far more sympathetic and kind and responding and remember those details than me who was going through that maybe 12 years ago. And I think they're all valid and they're all really important. I think. The listening, of course, I think is important at every level. But for me, like when I'm mentoring people, I'm mentoring much more experienced people because that's the point that we've gotten to. I've, you know, I'm what the specifically the learnings that I've had over the last three to five years, they're so much fresher and I can be way more helpful and valuable to those people than those just starting out. So I just think, yes, be an army of people who actually care and listen to people, but helping people who are just a few years. behind is not a nice way to say it, like uh a few years further along is way more powerful, I think. You're way more relatable and kind and compassionate to those who you are really actively, but even having some of those experiences still. So yeah, I think that's awesome. Yeah, and you've give a bit of tough love sometimes. Sometimes they'll say things and you're like, no, no, no, trust me, you don't want to do it. I'm like, I'm telling you though, from my mistakes, it's like when you go on like a really bad date and you're like, look, don't date this guy. I've dated this guy, don't date this guy, okay? And you're trying to like help them learn from your mistakes, literally. Jackie, I've forgotten to ask you such a beautiful question, but I've just wanted to just... keep chatting with you, which is such a wonderful part of this podcast and just keep running with it. But what are you celebrating at the moment? I am celebrating myself at the moment. I would say that it's, m we were talking just before we hit record about like last year was an incredible year m for me, for us, like we wrote a book and launched it and the reception from it was amazing, like it was just incredible. But I think for me, when you say you're still on your journey, I think we're all still on our journeys. Like it's never done. You don't know what's around the corner. And you're always learning new things about yourself. And I think for me, I experienced a different kind of feeling burnt out last year after doing all of that. I've never written a book before. And I definitely in many ways wasn't writing a book from unnecessarily a place of the ease and calmness that I've learned to put in place in other areas of the business that I've had experience of over many years. So writing the book was a new thing and it just, I gave a lot of myself through that process. And as a result just really came crashing down to earth afterwards and had just given so much of myself to the whole process that I just, I burn out. And for me, it was again, a very humbling experience. Kind of what I was saying earlier where stuff where you kind of have this expectation of yourself and what you can do that I couldn't do things in the same way towards the last half of last year. And I had to really slow things down and not be able to push things through in the way that I have I do have done most of the time. And so it was a very painful time because it basically made me have to confront a huge amount of thoughts of myself that was still from a working perspective, particularly not coming from a good place, like coming from a place of like people pleasing from a place of not feeling good enough. And then when I was not able to operate at my normal level within my working uh world it meant that I had to confront those parts of myself from a way deeper level and learn how to be kinder to myself, more loving to myself, accepting of the fact that whatever I can do in that moment is enough to allow myself that time. And so for me I would say like good stuff is happening, bad stuff is happening, I'm kind of realizing that that is always going to be the case and it also depends on how you're perceiving those things in that moment as well. So for me, that celebration has having to come back to just much more like of the fact that I'm doing my best and I'm celebrating the things that I can do, even if they maybe would not be the choices that I would actively make in that moment, which is a very different relationship with myself than I've ever had before, like becoming aware of just how mean the voice in my head can be to myself. I'm getting much better at noticing it, but realising it for most of my life, I've been an asshole to myself in my head and that is how I've achieved most of the stuff that I've achieved, which is rubbish. It makes the success feel totally empty when you get there because you were not doing it from a place of like ease and flow and joy. And whilst I've managed to get access to much more of that through a lot of like personal work and development, there's many, many layers that go on underneath that. So, yeah, each day I just try to... celebrate and be kind to myself more and more and that's definitely the theme for me at the moment. Well, I literally feel like me and you are brain twins. Yeah, like literally like everything you're saying, I'm here just going, this is just come at the most perfect time this podcast, Jackie, like I just believe in like the universe and I believe that that conversations and things happen at the right time. Every single word you have just said, I relate to and I'm sure others will relate to 100%. We, I think as entrepreneurs, I feel like we're just different. We have a different type of personality, don't we? We are incredibly critical of ourselves as people. And I know firsthand that with me, I can sometimes, I'm trying to get away from this now, where I focus so much on negative things that happen and I give it so much more energy than a positive thing that's happened. And it's the most bizarre thing in the world and you can see it happening, but you almost allow it to happen. I don't know why, but you do. and you sort of feed into that. So what a gorgeous celebration that you just had and the fact that you're recognizing this. And my celebration is very similar to this, which is why I said brain twins, because I'm surrounding myself wonderfully with people like yourself and people in the industry who, and outside of the industry, who are helping me to kind of recognize that, ah you know, listen to my body, for example, listen to my mind. Listen, I know that I'm doing my best. Like for example, I said before I came on this podcast, we're at the beginning of May. I've been extremely unwell this week, really unwell. And at the beginning of the week, I was so mad at myself, so mad because I was like, how can you be ill? There is so much to do. And I think that made me more sick because I was trying to speed the process up. And I was almost thinking to myself, Athena, you are young, you are fit. Get up, get on with it. Your body will sort itself out. This is only a 24 hour bug. You're fine. I really wasn't fine. And I think it actually made it take longer. And people were saying to me, because I'm going through, you know, there are good things and bad things that are happening to all of us at the moment, Jackie, like life, And a lot of people are saying to me that they think that there's a lot of trauma stuff that's going on for me at the moment, which also is therefore coming through within my body. And my body is therefore actually reacting to it because I was in survival mode leading up to the Girls and Property retreat. The Girls and Property retreat happened. I almost had a bit of a dip after that naturally because you're in such an adrenaline rush that your body collapses. And then all of this trauma stuff happened and therefore my body therefore had the opportunity to react to it and then get really sick. And I think that actually it isn't a fluke that this has happened. I think this actually does all have a message within it somehow. And you know, I get a lot of people that, that will have conversations with me, Jackie, and I'm not sure if you have this as well at any stage in their journey. And they've got full-time jobs, they've got children, they've got homes, they've got this dream that they wanna do. And I actually think to myself, how on earth do you do it? How do you do it all? like that must take some real like energy and real guts to do it. Cause if I'm worn out, and I've got too much on my plate, God only knows what they must have. like, I almost think to myself, what message can we ever give to these people? mean, what message would you give to people who have just got so much going on at the moment but want to have their dream? I think we all think we have so much going on. And I think it's potentially a delusion that we ever think that wouldn't be the case. And I think we're all trying to balance doing enough and not feeling overwhelmed. yeah, think it's really interesting that maybe you could see someone who is retired. you know, living off their pension and they've, you know, they should have no worries in that circumstance. But quite often you might talk to someone who's in that circumstance where they're stressed out and overwhelmed and they've got their own life dramas. Like, and I think just that acceptance that everyone is going through this, everyone has too much on their plate, but it's how we relate to the stuff that's on our plate that is the problem, not the stuff that is on our plate. And I think just that. m I'm reading a lot of books by Pima Chodron at the moment, is uh from the Buddhist school of thought. I think it's just really good the way she puts things across. It's like we all think we have to change our external world to be able to make things okay for ourselves, but we actually don't. We just have to change how we react to the stuff in the moment and not think that... By changing that, we're going to make ourselves feel better because funnily enough, unless you change the relationship with yourself, another problem or another thing to be worried or busy about will just plop right in. So just starting to realise that I love musicals. Musical Wicked, that amazing film that came out recently, Dancing Through Life. The lyrics of that song, I think, are really great because it's basically like nothing matters, but knowing nothing matters. And we all get so drawn up in our lives thinking everything is so important, but it really isn't. like it's all of the stuff is here to just teach us stuff about ourselves. And the real important thing is to not get drawn into drawn into the drama of it, of whatever is being presented and to just be okay, no matter what is going on. so I guess that that would be my message overall, really, it's just you don't have to change anything in your life to be okay, really within reason, but just choose how you relate with that thing not going well, because it's really the judgment that you have of yourself for that thing not going well or how you want it to go that's actually causing the problem. oh But that's quite a long-winded answer to quite a short question, but I hope I put myself across. I just want to put you in my pocket, like literally. I literally just want you to stay just here in my pocket, you know, or actually, no, I'll come to you in the south of France. uh I'll come to you. Yeah. But honestly, like, so I'm obsessed with musical theatre, by the way, anyone tell you. So I was on the stage when I was quite younger and so Wicked is one of my favourite musicals. And funny enough, am literally, and I'm gonna send you a recording when I finish this podcast, I'm gonna go put that song on and just listen to it because you're so right. actually it's, do you know what? Let's be real. It's easier said than done because we can get sucked in because we're human beings at the end of the day. And also I'll tell you why we get sucked in. It's because it matters to us. It's so important to us. Like for me, my business is my heart and my soul. And so if my businesses are ever coming under attack, or if anything's ever happening, like it's like they're attacking my soul. And actually what I need to do is I need to sort of dis-attach myself from it and to go, do you know what, Athena, let them, as Mel Robbins says, it's a them problem, it's not an us problem. And that is so hard to do, but I think the more it happens, the more you learn. Like your water pump, it's exactly the same. The more the water pump happens, the more you get used to the water pump. So, you know, for anyone else out there. Yeah, for anyone else out there who feels this way and feels to themselves, do you know what? I've got this thing going on at work. I've got this thing going on with my family. I've got this thing going on with my kids. I've got this thing going on in the industry. Like every single person is going through it. It's just that some people talk about it and have the guts to talk about it. And some people don't have the guts to talk about it, but know that everyone has their own story and everyone has their own, quite frankly, shit that is going on for them. And I think that's important. to recognise nobody is ever on their own, are they Jackie? Yeah, that's so true. And I think it's, so hard to be vulnerably open with the challenges that you're going through as you're going through them. And often sometimes for the sake of the business, it doesn't make business sense for those things to be shared. And that's, fair enough, but uh I think as much as possible, as close to the moment in time as possible to share some of the challenges that you're going through, or even not necessarily doesn't have to be on Facebook, but just with people that you're connecting closely with, like being open with your investors about your challenges. Like for me, with mentoring people, part of me at first, when I was first doing that, felt that I had to have all my shit together to be able to do that. And that definitely stopped me from being sort of like open and vulnerable when I was mentoring people. But these days I am like, I'm so open and share everything that I'm going is going on with me. And it's weird because I kind of in the past felt that that was a weakness, me not being good enough as a mentor, like real a lot of self judgment. But the more that I share the fact that this is going wrong, that's going wrong, this down valuation, that builder issue. whatever it may be, I cried before I came on this session this morning, like just be honest about what's going on. For me, I... the response is... indescribable because there's a connection with others that you cannot create when you're putting on this facade of everything is okay but when you show that everything is really not okay but somehow I'm still okay and I'm still here and I'm still going that's actually way more powerful overall. So for me like in the autumn of last year when I was going through a really tough time and didn't have the energy I was literally sending my mentorship group messages like saying how rubbish I was feeling and how much of a hard time I was having in a way that before I would have tried to like hide it, on a front and show up and do my job. But actually, it was very powerful for me personally to realize that me just blubbering to a group of people who I do my best to support and serve and inspire, that that could actually be enough and way more powerful than me just showing up and working on investor proposition or whatever I would normally do in sessions. yeah, just that openness and connection with others does help to make you realize that when you're having a rubbish day, so someone else and the rubbish days won't be forever. uh Literally, I had to be five minutes late to one of my calls and literally said to her, I'm so sorry, I'm having a disaster. There's like a real issue at my vitalet. It was to do with the roof basically. And I was like, I'm having a really bad time. Like this is not good. And I said to her, okay, so this can happen by the way. So this is what's just happened to me. FYI, make sure this doesn't happen to you. Here are all my mistakes. And I'm very, you know, very open about that. So I think let's take that forward Jackie off, you know, today, let's continue to be open, continue to connect. And I think that's the best way we can be. And I think that that is, you know, if anybody else wants it, that's our superpower. Do you know what I mean? Always be open and connect. Jackie, how would you, what would you say to somebody who is listening to this podcast at the moment is starting in their journey, they're brand new and they, have gone to a couple of courses. they have done the whole shiny penny syndrome. They've learned about rent-to-rent, they've learned about deal sourcing, they've learned about commercial conversion, they've learned it all. And now they're sort of like, okay, what do I actually do now to go forward? How do I actually take what I've learned and go forward in this? What would be your advice to them? I think it's the most important thing to do at that point is to commit to the one thing that you're going to do. And this doesn't have to be the one thing forever. Like I'm not going to come down your house in 10 years and be like, you told me you was doing rent-to-rent, but choose the one thing that you're going to do for now and focus on making that one thing work. And I would say that selection process is, I have done that with hundreds of people and there's loads of different variables that you have to weigh up to help you to make that choice. But I have They're still down to a few key elements, I suppose, to consider to help you to make that choice. So things like what, like what's your previous experience and skills that you can bring to property? So are you, do you have experience in the property industry or not? If you don't have experience in the property industry, therefore you want to choose a much simpler, lower risk in to get in. So if the first thing that you're, you've never done property before, commercial conversions are going to be a very high risk starting point for you. So just weigh up what experience you're bringing to property based on that, the level of complexity of the model that will change. Same with the resources that you can ultimately bring. Like, have you got a lot of time? Have you got a lot of money? And just consider those elements as part of your decision-making process. I would then also consider your personality profile. Are you someone who's much more like... ordered and systematic or someone who's much more of a people person or someone who's great at starting things or someone who's great at finishing things. What's your, what you predispose to and when you're thinking about the models and think about that in mind as well. So if you're going to do larger commercial conversions, for example, you probably do want to be more detail oriented, more process driven compared with maybe like uh sourcing, which has got more of a people aspect to it. which might be better for you. So just consider what you would say your personality type is and just think, is that compatible with the model that I'm ultimately going to be choosing? And then of course your motivations. What is motivating you to get into property? And of course, let's just put this with the financial lens at this point. Are you doing it for additional cashflow? Are you doing it to replace your income cashflow? Are you doing it for chunks of cash or do you want long-term wealth? So use one of those. because I think the way people get themselves in a bit of a mix is to go, I want all of these. Of course, yes, ultimately you probably do want all of these, but which one is the most important thing to you now? And then when you're choosing that, make sure that the model that you're choosing is gonna help you to do that. So for example, I think people saying, I want long-term wealth and I want cashflow can really get people in one hell of a muddle because ultimately they're not necessarily gonna be... linking together really nicely in the short term. just say, okay, if replacing my income is the most important thing, which of these things that I have been drawn to so far helped me to get the high priority short term uh motivation from a financial perspective sorted. And so hopefully from those things, you can then shortlist what looks like it would be a good model on the basis of all of those things. And then try and find someone who is doing that model. who is willing to be truthful and honest with you about not just the upsides, but the downsides, because I promise all of you, all of the models are not perfect. They all have downsides, they all have problems. So just the acceptance that the sort of problems that come up with that model, you are willing to tackle and not use the problems that come up as an opportunity to flip to the next thing. So to be totally committed to it. That's my answer. It was perfect. I perfectly said, yes, Jackie, exactly that, exactly. Just, yes, I'm not gonna say anymore. Thank you, fantastic. And that was great. And then just in terms of then, one thing I haven't done in actually a really long time in this podcast, and I had a message the other day from somebody that was like, Athena, where have the property disasters gone? Let's talk property disasters, property mishaps. And I was like, my God, yes, you're totally right. And Jackie, think you're the perfect person to do this with. So can you give us a really funny, like not, well, yeah, it can be funny, but like a funny or like, devastating disaster that you've had just so that we keep this podcast real. And we're like, look, girls, you can do it. There's some amazing thing that's happened. You can be in a caravan in the South of France and live the life you want to live, but this is the disaster that can also happen. So, so go on Jackie. we go for the biggest ever disaster I would say that's ever happened to us? Yeah, our first ever commercial conversion. Absolute unmitigated disaster and everything that could have gone wrong in that project did go wrong. We had issues, was permitted development, uh it was a shop with residential above that we were planning to convert into initially three and subsequently four flats. nice small simple commercial conversion. I'd only done refurbs up until this point just as context. We thought this is great, this is all under permitted development. We had so many issues with planning, even though it was meant to be simple. And even though we had a planning consultant on board, a very good and experienced one. We had issues with builders because we didn't have experience of builders at that level of project. So we had... builders, a builder who overspent on the project, who couldn't finish the project, we had to kick them off and get another one. We had issues with acoustics because we had local authority building control on the project. We asked them for the spec for acoustics. They got it wrong. And subsequently, when we'd nearly finished some of the properties, we had to pull it all out again and sort out acoustics. We had issues with structural work where we had a structural engineer who did the wrong calculations. and we had to get new calculations done and a ridiculous amount of money spent on steels. We had massive problems with overrun. We nearly overran our bridge timeframe. I feel like the utilities, the amount of nightmares of utility supplies that should have been reasonably straightforward. Also, we'd thought that didn't work out. Every single thing that could have gone wrong on this project did. And I believe we made minus £20,000 on that project. which for us was devastating at that point. And ironically, it was the hardest project we've ever done and the only project that we've ever made a loss on. And these poxy little bitalettes or these poxy little refurbs that I was looking down on, we've never, you know, some of them have been lower profit than others, but we've never got anywhere close to not making a profit. So yes, that was the worst ever disaster. And I had so much shame of that. experience as it was happening because everyone else who's doing commercial conversions seem to be getting on fine because I wasn't, I didn't hear about it. I've subsequently found out that loads of people have these kind of issues but because we're all feeling shame no one's telling anyone else that these things are happening which is perpetuating the problem so I do try and talk about it now as much as I can. But yes we still have managed to hang on to the property it's been a few years, quite a few years now since we first bought it we've managed to Hold on to it, we've had some capital appreciation, we've paid down the debts that remained on the property and it's actually going to end up in a good place overall. But yeah, some very painful years sorting that one out basically. Wow, so you were minus 20,000 and how many bits of hair did you lose in the process as well? Well look at this, we've got basically bald on one side. Honestly, do you know what's so funny? am, do you know what, Jackie, I really feel for you. And thank you for being so open and honest. Like, you know, it really is just one of those things. And you always blame yourself, don't you? You always go, how could I have let this happen with my experience? How could I have done this? I'm exactly the same. I'm exactly the same. Okay, I haven't done a commercial conversion. I've never said that I have done, but you know, I've got my own kind of like buy-to-lets that I have had. I've bought them for way too much money, way too much money. Yeah. You know, I have done, I have put money down on events where it didn't sell and therefore I've lost deposits. know, whatever our story is, yeah, whatever our story is. It's like, it's really tough because then you blame yourself and you go, you should have known better. But it's like, well, how could you have known better? You've never done it before. It's the first time, like just give yourself a break. You know what I mean? And I love the fact you've shared that. you know, I love the fact that it's, it's, we'll see it as longevity for the commercial conversion. It's pulling itself back again, but yeah, property disasters I think are important to share for anyone who is doing it. And those poxy vitalettes, you know, they, they, Maybe they are actually the foundation of our nation. Maybe we should just keep the foundation. Stick with it. Do you know what? I love vitalettes. They're so, I don't mean to, okay, I don't want to use the easy. That's not the right word to use. They are so, they're like bread and butter, aren't they? They're like a nice bit of bread and butter. They are sustainable. They fill you up and they're just good. You know? I when I was there judging myself, you know, 10 years ago or whatever for by to let's not being good enough and looking at these people doing the cooler, sexy stuff and wanting to be them. Many of those people are either seriously struggling or have gone pop. Like it's doing the biggest stuff is sexier, but it's also much higher risk. And let's be honest, most of us don't want higher risk. And yes, there are some people who love that and the thrill and they get a kick from it and they don't, you know, that's great for them. And there are some people that is right for, but the majority of us it's not right for. Like we just want to have some good, consistent cashflow without putting ourselves under too much financial issue. And so yeah, I love, I love buy to let. Love it. Oh, do you know what, Jackie? I'm going to get you back on the podcast. You're just a ray of sunshine, just a ray, a ray of sunshine. I love it. And do know, so many people are going to want to talk to you after this as well. I think they're just going to want to really connect with other people who are really real in this industry. I think that that's what my mission is. I'm trying to, I'm trying to find the real ones. I'm trying to find the ones that have just got good energy, you know, good people. don't care if you're a guy, I don't care if you're a girl, just come to me if you've got great energy. So Jackie, if people wanted to connect with you, hear more about property disasters, hear more about your journey, where can they find you? So there is a book called Focus Your Way to Freedom, which is basically full of all the property disasters. It's kind of like a blend between a property book and a personal development book. So that's called Focus Your Way to Freedom. You can get that on Amazon or maybe give you a link for the show notes here as well. I also do run a podcast that's called Property Lifestyle Mastery. Same kind of vibe as yourself, you know, like just being sharing the brilliant stuff that happens, but balancing it with the challenges that go on along the way as well. So you can very easily access those two things off the back of today's session. If you want to find out more about working together, I run a mentorship program called Dealmaker Accelerator for experienced investors who want to scale up, do more deals, raise finance and ultimately create freedom. I'll give you a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to reach out to find out more about that. And then we also have a large focus on raising finance in property. So anyone who's particularly wanting to delve into that, we've got some great trainings and workshops to support that too. And my website is property-strategy.com and you can find out everything we do there and also connect with me on social media. And I tell you what if you're up for it, maybe what I'll do is I'll get you back on to do maybe like a private a raising private investor podcast Yeah, because because like a lot of girls ask me all the time about raising private finance I think it's a really hot topic So if you're up for it, I think let's do that as another topic and get you back on they'll be really good Yeah, important hot topic at the moment. Definitely. Um, and as always I'm Athena Dobson underscore official and girls and property on Instagram the website Which actually is having a complete rebrand which I'm so excited about Um, so that should be coming soon is a www.girlsandproperty.co.uk. As always, I've got my girls and property community. We are at just under a hundred members now within the girls and property community, which is insane. Um, we've got so much coming up in terms of different sessions and seminars. Um, I'm also doing quarterly, like a behind the scenes, um, sort of. Registrar session where you can come on and ask me questions and I can show you behind the scenes of the community so you can understand it more. to also I built it on the Circle platform. So it's a place to really connect with the other hundred members. And then of course, we've got the three workshops this year as well in June, September and November, 20 spaces per workshop and come and ask me and DM me if you want to know the topics of those workshops and we'll have a chat. uh But Jackie, thank you for coming on today. We will be seeing you again soon for part two, Raising Private Finance. but thank you for your energy, thank you for your time and have the most amazing time in the South of France. You're welcome. Thanks all the listeners, thanks girls, thanks guys and have a great week. Speak to you soon. Bye.