Starting and Scaling Your Rent-to-Rent SA Portfolio with Ellen McDonald

Welcome back to the Girls in Property Podcast! In this episode, your host Athena Dobson sits down with Ellen MacDonald — a former teacher turned thriving entrepreneur who’s carved out a successful path in the rent-to-serviced accommodation space - Think Air B n B & Booking.com. If you're listening in, chances are you’re curious about how to break into the rent-to-rent world yourself, or you have a few properties and are looking to scale. 

Together, Athena and Ellen dive into the highs, lows, and everything in between — offering valuable insights for anyone considering making the leap. From setting realistic expectations and nurturing strong relationships to staying focused on the bigger picture, they unpack what it truly takes to grow in this fast-paced industry.

They also get real about the challenges: the trap of chasing shortcuts, why knowing your numbers is non-negotiable, and the common roadblocks when it comes to sourcing deals. Ellen shares her own behind-the-scenes stories with unfiltered honesty, reminding us that success often comes from the lessons learned along the way.

Tune in for a fun, candid, and motivating conversation that shines a light on what it really takes to start strong and stay the course in your property journey.

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls in Property podcast. I hope everybody is having the most wonderful week so far. If you're listening on the Monday, hopefully your morning's gone really well so far. If you're listening on the Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, wherever you're listening from, hope that you're all doing well. Also, loads of you are DMing me at the moment telling me where you're tuning in from, what you're doing. You're sending me some amazing screenshots. So please continue to do that. I absolutely love, love hearing from all of you. So please do DM me via girls and property. So today's podcast, I am really looking forward to this. I always say to you guys that I try and get on the most interesting people, different topics, and even people from tuning in from around the world as well, which is super, super fun uh and just super interesting about finding out more about them and their personalities and how property brings us all together as well, but also what they're doing individually. So today, the person I'd love to get on the podcast to introduce you to is a wonderful person called Ellen MacDonald. Hey Ellen. Hello. So I am currently in Darwin, Australia. So it's like. 8.30 now, so very different time zone to the UK and it's very different weather to be fair as well. yeah, how crazy is that that we've managed to get this recording literally you are on the other side of the world? I think that's so cool. Yeah, I think it is actually not especially with the times and everything, but you just like with social media with everything now, you can do anything from anywhere, can't you? Literally you can do anything from anywhere exactly and what's the reasons for you being up in Darwin like in an Australia like tell us what what because I know obviously you've not got an Australian accent So what brings you to Australia? Do you know what? It literally was at the end of 2020. So I ran my business for about four years now. At the end of 2024, I just reached a point where I was like, I've started this business. I've started to scale it. And I just, all the reasons I started a business, all the freedom, all the fun, everything I wanted from it, I just completely forgotten about. And so I said to myself, like, I'm not having 2025 be the same as 2024. So I decided just before Christmas, I was like, I'm going away and I'm going to Australia. I studied in Australia for a year as part of my degree. So was like, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to, you know, actually test one of my business from out here. And it's just surprisingly, the business has actually boomed and gone so much better whilst I'm away, which is quite funny. So, and I just keep traveling now at the moment. And then that's what's got me to Australia. That's incredible. And I love the ambition that you had to say, this is what I want to do. I know that I can run the business remotely. I can run the business from, from literally the other side of the world. And you made it happen, which is incredible. So, and what we're to be talking about today is we're to be talking about the world of rent to service accommodation army, which is super exciting. I love this topic. So really looking forward to it. But before we delve straight into it, can you first of all, Go back a bit for me. So introduce yourself to the viewers who maybe don't know about you. How did you get into property? How did you get into service accommodation uh and this crazy world of SA that we're in? Yeah, so I actually used to be a primary school teacher and I taught out in Abu Dhabi when I finished my degree and I thought I'd stay out there for ages. I had a really good salary, it was tax free, but I actually hated it. Like it was not what they'd sold to me. It was... Yeah, okay, had brunches at the weekend and yeah, I had a very good salary but the Sunday to Thursday was horrendous. And actually went out with a partner that I was with at the time and he'd come across some videos online about property. So he was like, let's go back and do it. And we're not together now but I'll always be grateful for that because he introduced me to something that I hadn't seen before. And I'm someone who doesn't like risks either. And he was like, I think we should do it. Like, let's give it a go. Let's give it a year. Start a property business. We were starting with sourcing and see what happens. And we came back to the UK. We ended up breaking up. I started a business on my own and I just absolutely fell in love with having a business. I fell in love with rental service accommodation because, you know, I love property, but there's something about Airbnb. There's something about you go into a property. you know, at the start I took down run, run down properties, did them up, made them pretty and put it out there. And I just kind of grew the strategy from there. And now I can't imagine going back to teaching because of everything that, you know, the freedom that property has given me. But yeah, that's how I got started. love that. Do you know, do you have this as well? I have so many different types of people that come to me and the majority of people that want to start in property that I speak to are either teachers or nurses. It's so interesting how many teachers Yeah, the teachers that go into it. think the thing with teaching is like you love it. Like you love working. I miss working with kids. I absolutely loved. I taught grades one and grade three and they were brilliant. But you don't feel appreciated. Yeah, okay, you have the summer holidays, but you know, the amount of work that you do after hours, you just reach a point where you're like, and you can't make more money. Like I love now that if I want, you know, I'm traveling, I want a lot more money than when I was at home. I can make more money, can take on more properties, can source more deals. But as a teacher, you can't ask for overtime. You're set in what you're making. So I think people just want more for their lives, which is why teachers and nurses probably all flock to it. Yeah, there's so many, honestly, there's so, many. And I think I was talking to somebody about this the other day about also transferable skills and like how you acquire such transferable skills that they can go into property as well. There's loads. um But yeah, it's fantastic. And what we're going to delve into today is this world of rent to service accommodation, because it is wild, wild west. It really is. And there are so many people wanting to get into it. are already in it, wanting to take on more properties. I've of course experienced it myself, so I understand this world. um As I said to you, I left it as quickly as I entered it personally, um but that's just me. And I love talking to others who are operating successfully within this division because to be honest with you, Ellen, I feel like sometimes, um and I can be guilty of this, I think Rent to SA can get quite a bad reputation for because there's this portrayal in the industry. where um people seem to be doing it rightfully or wrongly, they're over sharing of how well they think that they're doing. But actually in reality, it's not that. And then people get disheartened by it and say that it doesn't work, whereas that's not true. There are people who are very successful within the rent service accommodation. I wanna portray that today and show how you can be, but in the right way. So we're gonna delve deep into that and the world of it. So for me, what I am celebrating is like that I actually enjoy my life now. And I know it sounds crazy, but I had times even in the first few years of my business when It grew so quickly and I was making good money, everything seemed successful. And I was like, I'm not actually happy. Like I should be happy because I'm making money and the business is working, but I'm not. And now I'm at a point where like I am creating a life that I am happy to be in. I make my money from my business. I get to travel, I get to see places and I'm very much on this year kind of growing me as a person, not just as the business owner, but also as Ellen MacDonald. and enjoying my life. So yeah, that's why I'm celebrating. you know what, that's massive, that's absolutely huge. And what's weird is, is I'm on a really similar journey to you as well. So I think, I think what happens is, I don't know about you, but I've, I've sort of had the different businesses that I've had for about three years now. So I've been like a business owner for three years. And for me, when you start out, I totally understand it. Like, and I understand how it all happened, but you just literally have to give like your soul to the business to make it work because... you end up doing everything. Like it's nothing like having a job. It's a relentless, it's constant. And you have to put so much money and effort into the business and at the beginning not actually see much return. And that's a very difficult thing to do. And I think what's happened to me is as time has gone on, I used to think what success used to look like was what other people's version of success was, which was, okay, I need to get to six figures. When I get to six figures, that will make me successful. or when I've got five team members and everybody knows my name and I walk in a room and that's what success means. And actually what you've just said is beautiful and I'm also celebrating this, which is I feel like this year I'm learning a lot about me and like rather than just being Athena Dobson, host of Girls and Property, property investor, it's like, that's not who I am. I'm just me. I'm just Athena. Yeah. and who am I? And I've been learning a lot about healing and I've been learning a lot about things that um I've had to almost overcome to get past it to then grow. And I didn't realize I had to over overcome certain things. And it's a really interesting one also when you're in this industry. And I don't know if you've gone through this yourself, but when you start to grow and you start to get a name for yourself in this industry, naturally, um people can sometimes come and come for you a little bit and kind of attack you within that because you're beginning to get a name for yourself and they go I don't like that I don't like you're getting too successful get back in your box and actually I've it's been quite painful for that to happen but at the same time you almost have to go through it to then grow as a person because you're understanding and healing within yourself to then grow so when you're talking about you and the fact that you're celebrating the fact that you're loving your life I am here for that all day long I think that is Priceless it has no price tag and I think that for me that's what success looks like. Yes We've got to pay our bills. Yes, we've got to be great in our businesses But we've got to be happy at the same time and happiness exceeds Every time for me any amount of money you could ever make so yeah happy, like this is the other thing I'm going through, is like, it's okay to be happy. It's okay to start loving your life. know, everyone's out there saying, you know, life's getting expensive or this is going wrong. I'm not saying things haven't gone wrong in my life, they have, but I'm allowed to put my happiness first. And when you said about, you know, your kinds of identity, I remember it must have been. about a year and a half ago. And I was just so consumed with Ellen MacDonald, EM stays, know, the image that was out there on my social media, you know, the business. I wanted to be this business owner. I didn't know what that was, but I wanted to come across as the right business owner. And I remember speaking to a friend who I've known for 10 years. And I honestly like, I'll never forget it. She rang me and it was at the point where my business was just consuming me. And she just goes to me. you are not EM Stays. And I was like, no, no, she's like, you are not EM Stays, you are Ellen MacDonald. And she started listing the stupidest things. She was like, you're the girl who used to wear sparkly converse every time she could. You're the girl who orders a milkshake and a brownie and then realizes she can't have both because she'll feel sick. And in that moment, it was like, yeah, like I'm Ellen MacDonald, not the business owner, not. you know, the place I'm a rent to rent, just Ellen. And I think you forget it. And that again, that's when I'm on this journey to back who I am. The business owner is one part of it. The friend is one part. The daughter is one part. But it's not all consuming in one place. I absolutely love that. Like, I love that. I love your friend. Like, it takes like a really good friend who's known you for 10 years. By the way, I'm here for the sparkly converse. Yes. I am here for- bright colours. I'm telling you. my god, you are speaking my language. I love this. Yes. times you have to get, I know I'm wearing all black now, but I've only got certain stuff with me and my camping backpack. But yeah, I just think as well, it's the same as women. love when you see women take up space in whatever outfit they want to wear. It's not about hiding in the background. It's about what do you like? Who do you want to be? know, sparkly converse all the way. Ellen we need to hang out more this is great I am here for this yes you two need to meet. Yeah, we have to give a shout out to Sam from Lubric. Sam from Lubric was literally like, girls, you two need to have a conversation. So shout out to Sam, definitely. Right, Ellen, let's go from sparkly converse to talking about Rent to Essay. Let's really try and help the girls listening today and guys, because we have guys listening as well, for those who really want to get into the world of Rent to Essay. So how about this? Let's start. at the beginning for people and then we can sort of go in a linear line from there. So when you're looking at Rent2SA, how did you acquire your first one? Like how did you get started yourself? So I found my first rent to essay from Gumtree and I'll always remember it because I was bricking it, right? I'd been to one of those property events, you know, where they say to you like, this is how you do it. you just need to call landlords and they show you how to call landlords. And I was like, great, it sounds so simple. But at that point, the barrier was me. And I see it so many times, especially with women where like they, they don't really believe they can do it. And that was my problem. I didn't really believe that I could do it. So when I'd send messages, I'd contact a load of landlords online and then I would tell myself reasons why they weren't going to answer. So I'd look and I'd be like, well that one's pointless actually, because it doesn't look like a good property. Or like, oh, I don't think they're gonna answer me back. And I kept avoiding it and then I'll never forget someone said to me, how much money do you think you've lost by not taking action quickly? And I'd never looked at it as losing money, I'd always looked at it as like not making a tit of myself. And in that moment I was like, crap, I actually have to take action. So I remember contacting. It was in York, on Gumtree. The one was called Heather. And I'm sending messages to her. And then she goes, yeah, do you want to view the property tomorrow? And I was like, oh my God, this is actually working. And it's why with Rent SOSA, I'd always say, like, remember that it's just a people's business. Because I think before that, I'd looked at everyone as like this big landlord. You know, I couldn't get into this industry. I met this woman. She was a teacher. So I related on, we're both teachers and we just spoke honestly and openly. And I think as well, this is like, I have so many pet peeves with rental SA and people telling you how to do it because everyone kind of goes in with this fake persona of like, that they've got all these properties before they have. And I kind of went in quite honest with it. She knew it was the first property I was taking on in that area. She knew that I was I'd learnt about Rent to SA, but I wasn't trying to be someone I wasn't. And I honestly think she gave me the opportunity because she was like, one, you're a teacher, and two, I think she just looked like, okay, I want to give you this opportunity. And that's how I got my first Rent to SA. And when I first took them on, I had to do a lot of like, add a lot of value to properties. So she had a student property. It wasn't being well looked after. We painted it, we put new furniture in. She got the furniture at the end of the contract. And so I really just actually added value to her in a way that she needed at that time. Yeah, I mean, that's incredible, isn't it? And you've just made such good points there. So the first amazing point that you've made is just be yourself as well. um To be honest with you, a lot of people I speak to these days, they will say nowadays, I'll say, Athena, I tried on Gumtree, it doesn't work. I tried on Open Rent, nobody's responding to me. I'm like, well, how many messages did you send on Open Rent? They're like 30. Nobody's come back to me. um You know, all of these things like what? messages that gets me as well, because when I started, I would send like, think 130 messages a week. I would message every single property on Odrament within across the whole of the UK, because I'd quit teaching. So it's my full time. I... It's why it frustrates me when you say like 30 messages, I hear people go, oh, I've tried and I've sent 10, right? Well, what's 10 gonna get you? Until you've messaged every single person and you've picked up, know, people will be rude to you, people will say no, some just won't reply, but you have to message enough to actually give it a chance to work. Yeah, definitely. I think what's really interesting is, had you actually left, when you were doing this, your rent assay, had you already left your full-time job at the time, or were you still in a full-time job? I'd left, right, but, and people ask me all the time, Ellen, like, would you quit? No, it's the stupidest thing you could do, in my opinion. And I quit my job, but I quit because I was in Abu Dhabi. So I couldn't do it from there. And I was fortunate that I could live at home with my parents. You know, I didn't have to worry. My biggest worry was I'm gonna give it a year. If it doesn't work in a year, I'll go back to teaching. But if I... taught in the UK, I do what I think a lot of teachers do now, I go part time. You know, I'd use my weekends, I'd use my evenings, because even when you go full time straight away, you go from having a schedule, from knowing what time you need to be up, what time you need to be at work, what you have to do every day, to being in complete control of your schedule. You have too many hours, because you're only just starting out, I don't need that many hours. I only did it because as said I couldn't do it from Abu Dhabi so yeah I went straight into it. No parachute. what if I... Exactly, yeah, no parachute. I know that feeling. Terrifying. But what would you say that I'm just trying to picture? So I know a lot of the women who message me about this and they're in a situation, for example, where they're in a full-time job, which is extremely demanding of them. They don't live at home and therefore they've got mortgages to pay, rent to pay, bills that are coming in. um And they're like, Athena, I want to get into rent to you service combination. This is definitely the road that I want to go down. Fine. Like, what advice would you give to those people who have bills to pay and lack of time? I think you have to, it depends on where you want to do it. Like I know people who, depends on what job you're in. I know people who've gone, okay, I'm going to put every single hour into working. I'm going to pick up every extra shift I can pick up. I'm going to build a pot and I'm going to buy my first rent to rent. And they do it that way. Or, you know, okay, what hour can I give to it? You know, if you think about lunchtime, you're on your lunch break, right? I'm going to send a load of messages. I'm not going to sit and say it's going to be as easy because by the time you can view it, it might have gone, but then you need to find ways around it. Can someone else view it? You you put yourself like the girls that come into this community, who else do they know who could possibly view it for them? You know, who can they speak to? It's about using your time as wisely as possible so that you can still have the money coming in from your job. You still have that security, but you're building, you know, your network, your building, your list of. Letting agents that you speak to, landlords that you speak to, you're building your confidence even with RentOSA because I always say as well, it's not just when you're calling landlords, it's not about getting that yes, it's about you getting comfortable speaking to landlords. It's about you growing as that business owner before you've even got that first property. So I'd say to someone that's still in a job, start out with that way, give yourself... number of messages to send you know make sure you're doing it in the morning and your lunch break after work when can you get that viewing in can someone else go for that view and what can you do to actually make it happen because it's not easy people will tell you it's easy you can get that deal in 30 days right okay that might happen it also might not happen so you've got to think long term and again it's the problem in this industry especially with rent to SA and with sourcing Everyone's thinking short term, everyone wants it now. Well, that's great having it now, but you want the business in four years and five years time. The work that you do on day one is what gets you where you're at. I wouldn't have landlords now that I could work with in Australia if I hadn't put that graft in for four years. So I think sometimes people just need to think it's not an overnight thing. If you want to change your life and create this life, it's going to take a couple of years. So use the time that you can now. and think about the bigger picture. Yeah. Brilliant advice. Absolutely brilliant advice. I love that. Like I think in our industry, we want such quick wins, instant gratification. And you're right. Like if it takes time to build those relationships, just going back into this original property that you took on. So with that, I you had to do some work. You had to put the furniture in. I presume there were deposits to pay, et cetera. So what was your initial investment? Do you remember like roughly what your initial investment that you had to pay upfront into that? first property was. it was £750 a month. I didn't pay a deposit because we made the property nicer. So that was the agreement that we made. I can't remember the exact amount, but it was, needed new beds. I needed to paint the place. I've probably put it around the £3,000 mark for all the furniture and painting it. But we did everything. Like we went in, it wasn't like... Now I would hire people to do the painting, cetera, and put the furniture in, but I did everything myself then because it was the start. And I did that via sourcing as well. I sourced first to build that money up, to then put it into Rent-to-SA. Amazing. We're going to come on to sourcing. We're going to cause like that's a whole, that's a whole conversation, which I really looking forward to. Yeah. I'm looking forward to getting onto the sourcing bit, but I think, I think that's fair to say. I'd say roughly between three to 5,000 pounds for like starting on your, on kind of your first one. Now what I think, I tell you what I think that one of the, uh, one of the things that people think, which is an unrealistic expectation, but it does depend on when you take on the property in terms of the time of the year. And I think it depends on the area that you take it on. There are so many variable factors to it. It's unbelievable. But I think people think that they're going to then turn a profit within like the first month or two. you know, I often say to people, I didn't turn a profit in my own rent service accommodation business until about month six. So, you you've got to, you've got to really understand. So what would your advice be about, about, uh about that side of things? I always say like you want to think like people need to have that like better money there for like three months at least because you're going to list it online you've got a time to set it up yes okay rent free periods might come into it but you need time to build traction online and I think people are the same they expect it straight away so I would say give yourself three months a lot of the work that I do now is with contractors so I kind of take my properties with the contractors in mind, the contractors that I'm working with. But if I go back to when I started out, it was very much like, okay, we need the money there for the first few months. Maybe we need to manage it ourselves at the start to keep costs down. I was very fortunate with York because basically the let-in agent that we went through, she double booked a property. So I think at like three days afterwards, she put someone in for a long stay. So I was very, very lucky with that. But I would never tell people to expect that. would always say, think about three months, just to make sure you've got that money in the bank. But again, it's why when people say no money down deals, all that happens is that people go in, they expect to make money from day one, they run out of money the second month, and then they've invested all this money, they're handing it back to the landlord, they're telling the landlord they can't pay the rent, and then they're making everyone else's job 10 times harder. because they're ruining the industry and it's not even their fault because they've watched a video online where someone said you can make £2,000 a month straight away so they're going in with these expectations that just aren't right Yeah, I completely agree with you. Absolutely. And we had this ourselves. Like I've been really open about this. I remember when we started the Rent a Savers and stand in Bournemouth. I thought it'd be booming quicker than it than it did. I've always said this, you know, I saw so many Airbnbs in Bournemouth. I was like, yeah, Bournemouth will take it on and we took it on in like May time, you know, going into the summer. I was like, right, here we go. I was like, let's put it online. Let's crack open the champagne. Let's wait for all these huge amount of bookings to come in. Literally it was like tumbleweed, like tumbleweed wouldn't move, people weren't booking and I was like, my God, why aren't people booking? And then the first thing you do, which I don't recommend, the first thing you do is you start thinking maybe the price is too high. So you start decreasing the price. Don't do that by the way. It's not the best idea to do. um Yes, yeah. by the way, I could do a whole episode on the differences between booking.com guests and Airbnb guests. Nope. They are totally different people. We could do a whole topic on that one. what... Oh God, yeah, yeah, yeah, Definitely, we had all of that. But what I'm trying to say is, like, don't, like, when you go into it, go into it, like, really, really with a contingency and a buffer for paying your rent, because we really struggled to then pay the landlord. and we had to put more money into the actual business from our own pockets to actually then pay the landlord and it becomes really stressful and you know, it becomes really disheartening and then it takes time to actually take off. do your research like for example, and then what so is it just York that you invest in is in your properties or various? When I first started, and again, I did the same thing as you, at one point, I had properties. had York, Cumbria, Edinburgh, Chester, right? And again, I hadn't created the buffer. I hadn't prepared myself for the winter season. And we went into it and, you know, some things I couldn't prepare myself for. So, for example, York, as I said, it started off really well. And then... the management company basically did, and I still can't believe this happened, but they didn't charge the guest for two months when they were extending. And then they came to me and said, oh, sorry, we can't pay you because we've not charged the guest and they've left and they're not paying us. And I remember thinking, well, that's your problem, not mine. But then I read through the contract again. And again, you naively signed contracts at the start. And in the contract, it basically says, they're collecting it but they're not liable for anything. So I'm then paying the rent for two months on that property. It was my biggest performer, it carried the portfolio. So that screwed us. Then my Edinburgh property, I'd actually got one through a sourcer and basically they'd missold it to the Letton agent. So the Letton agent rang me and said, look, legally, we don't have to, like, you don't have to give this property back, but you shouldn't be running it. The woman in the office had lied, the sorcerer had lied. And I was like, right, okay, you know, and I don't regret giving it back because it was the right thing to do, but I regret not standing my ground more because I got screwed over by the let an agent. said they'd give us more properties, never heard from them ever again. uh But I had to give that one back. So then I had York not making money, Edinburgh going back. It's winter, so none of the properties are doing well. I'm at a point where I can't pay. I'd moved into a place rented at this point, couldn't pay my rent, didn't know how I was going to pay these rents. And I was like, what have I done? What is this industry? What am I do? I was ready to go back to teaching. And I had to start all over again. And I'm in a very different situation now, but I see it even with people who get started. They'll go into winter and they'll want to take three because they're so excited. And it's like, you're not ready to, I would love, especially from a source and point, I've had clients come to me and go, I want to take two more now. And I'm like, I would love to take your money happily, pay me. But it's the wrong thing for you to do because you're gonna over leverage yourself in this worst time because you're so excited and enthusiastic. And again, I've been there, I've been enthusiastic. I've been, I'm gonna make this. And you put yourself in a bad situation. So it's about running it like a business and taking it step. by step with realistic expectations. Yeah, completely. And you know what, just to touch on something there, just before I then go on to talk to you about you becoming a saucer, which is, you've just said something, which is I think that what happens to people, especially within the social media aspect of things and within the property world, is they rush, they run at 100 miles an hour. And I'll tell you why, it's because I was guilty of this. I rushed at 100 miles an hour. I remember taking on our first rent to HMM before we'd even finished sorting it out. I was already like, right, we've got to get the next one. We've to get the next one. I didn't even think how I was going to fund it. Literally didn't even think about it. I was just like, this is what you're meant to do. You're meant, and I kept saying to myself, let's get to five. Then when we get to five, let's get to 10. Like I was like, I had this weird number in my head and I don't even know why I had it. And it's with SA like, I remember the landlord giving us the property and then he's like, do you want my other one? We've got another one. And I was like, yeah, sure. Give it. And then someone else came and they're like, well, we've got another one. And I was like, yeah, we'll take that one. But I wasn't, I wasn't even, I wasn't even stopping to think, reflect, put it through the cashflow spreadsheets. I was just like, this is what you're meant to do. This is what success looks like. Look at me, look at me, social media, look at me. Oh, okay. Okay. love taking that picture, but it means nothing. I... I... Ellen, I've definitely done that. I've definitely done that. I have those key photos. Oh god. Oh my god. Listen guys, if you're listening to this... I'm just gonna say, girls and guys, if you're listening to this, please listen to us. Please. Don't rush. Don't rush. It is your story. It is your pace. It is your journey. Right? No one will be there at the end when you are not able to pay the rent um and the landlord's taking to a small claims court. No one will be there for you, right? Don't do it for others. Don't rush things. Go at your own pace. If it takes you one year to get one, that's a win. If it takes you uh two years to get one, that's a win. Don't ever compare yourself to someone else because I'm telling you, like I know and Ellen knows for a fact, of what is real and what isn't real on social media because we know the behind the scenes of it. And it isn't what it's cracked up to be. It's really not. And I remember the stress that I went through, but I'm being really honest here guys. Like I remember there used to be days where I'd be crying because things were going so wrong within the business. This was obviously two years ago, not now. And I'd be like, no, I can't show my weaknesses because landlords are following me. Therefore I've got to show the success. Now, if it happened to me, my God, would it be all over social media about how awful it was? Yep. the time you just want to seem like you've got you know your shit together basically so uh don't rush would be our advice Don't rush and don't like take that picture with the keys. love looking back at it and seeing it, but having the keys means nothing if it doesn't work. Actually look at the numbers of it. What are you gonna make from it? How long are you gonna take to make your money back? Because you can have 10 properties if they're making you 50 pound each. It's pointless. So actually think about it like a business, not social media game. Yeah. And you know what, just finally on that, do you know what really grinds my gears sometimes, Alan, is when you go to these networking events and they say to you, well, how many do you have? What's in your portfolio? And it's like, it doesn't matter. It's completely irrelevant. Yeah, it's the actual numbers. It's the same as I remember it being so big to hit six figures, right? That's amazing. How much money have you actually got in the bank? What's your actual cash flow? Because you can give the best number. It's for anything. And I was guilty of it because I was like, when I hit six figures, I was like, I've made it. And then after a while, I was like, well, your bank account's not looking like you've made it right now, Ellen. It means nothing. It's just a number. But you want to hit that milestone because you hear everyone say it. on so yeah Yeah, I'm with you. I love it. Exactly, exactly the same how I feel. In terms of sourcing then, Ellen, so I'll be really honest with you. So I think that sources get a really bad reputation within this industry. I think because there are some sources out there who literally are like showing you at 70% occupancy, showing you at like 2000 pound profit per calendar month, all of these things, and there are girls that get sucked into it. I try and protect a lot of the girls from sources, if I'm honest with you. valid. I'd love to hear is, yeah, but what I'd love to hear is from a decent saucer like yourself and kind of hear about the right way. If you're gonna become a saucer, like the right way to do it for service accommodations. So talk to me about saucers then and sourcing within this world. I would say, right, I said this to someone the other day, they were like, oh, is the bad people in your industry? And I was like, I want to say 85 % of sources are full of crap. And someone said to me, that's a really high number. And I was like, I stand by it. Like, I really think the majority of sources are full of crap. And I think there's multiple reasons. One is, and again, I look back to when I started, I quit my job to do this. So I had to make money. So you get to that point where you... They need that money to come in, a lot of the people who are sourcing, they need that three grand, it means so much to them. That I think some people are just not great people and they happily screw people over and I've seen it time and time again. But some people, I don't think they even mean to, I think at that point they're so desperate to keep it going that they convince themselves the numbers are different. And again, I hold my hands up right, there's been times where I've looked at a number. and I've wanted a deal to go through and it's when I haven't been doing that well very early on. And for five seconds I've gone, yeah, but if it, it looks like it could be 135 pounds a night, but then I've gone to myself, okay, Ellen, if you were taking it on, what do you think it is? Well, 135, yeah, it could be, but it's more likely 115. So it's knowing you in that moment to be like every deal that you take on. Every deal that you give to a client you have to be able to take on yourself and I've had that and I'll say it time and time again. I've had deals where I've sent it to clients just when I flew out in the airport. I offered a deal to one of my clients and they were like, oh, like I just don't think it's going to work. You know, I don't know the area. I don't want to go forward with it, right? I'm fine with that. I took the deal straight away because I told the landlord it was going through. It may be it's been fully booked since. the minute I took it on, I've had contractors in it. I will never pass someone a property that I would never, like I wouldn't take on myself because I don't think that's right. But I do think the reason for that with me is because I actually bought a deal from a saucer at one point and I got completely screwed over. And so I know what it feels like to be screwed over by a saucer. I know what it feels like to have someone who doesn't care. And I think I don't want to be that for other people. but a lot of people, they're just after quick cash. And I had a client who came to me for rent to SA and they'd bought a property from a sourcer. The sourcer knew that the client was overseas. So they knew what they were doing. They did a crappy refurb. They, it was terrible. And I went into that property to make it SA and had to tell them basically they'd been screwed over by the person that bought it off. And I think people forget. that when someone gives you three grand for a property, 12 grand, whatever it is, they've worked their ass off for that money, or they've inherited the money, whatever it is, you need to treat that money like it's your own. And I think a lot of sources don't do that, to be honest with you. And they don't even view properties. I've had people send me videos of properties that someone's gone to source them. And I'll be like, that's the video from the landlord. And I know it's the video from the landlord, because I've been sent the same video. And if the landlord sends it to them, you know, what are they hiding? Because when you go in a property, I can move a picture on the wall and see that it's damp. I can move that over there and find out something's broken. But people are just getting sent videos and they think that's sufficient to make a fee from it. And I think you just have to be so careful with a saucer. need to, from a point of view of looking at a saucer, you need to make sure they're actually reputable, they're working with other people they've got. recommendations from people that they're doing it themselves. They're actually got skin in the game because too many people are just hands and properties they'd never take themselves. Yeah, completely. I think what happens is that it's sold as, deal sorting is sold as something you can get into as a low barrier to entry to get into property, because it doesn't cost a lot of money to actually take on. You don't have the risk of actually taking on the property yourself. And therefore you get a lot of people that come off of these courses that go, I'm now compliant. I've paid my, I don't know, 450, 500 pounds to be compliant. I'm now going to go and find these properties and sell them on. That's how usually people start. What about some positive experiences? Because I think it's important that there are good sources out there such as yourself and others. Like I know that there are good sources. if somebody was like, let's say they didn't have genuinely didn't have the time to be going onto Gumtree and open rent and they wanted a good experience with the saucer to try and find them a property that was right for them in their area. What are some good sort of experiences that you've been aware of that have taken place and good results? I think when you look at a sourcer, like I look at my business and I grew through recommendation and people coming back for a second and a third property. So I always think if the deal I present you is as good as I say it is, you are going to want another one or you're going to tell someone else. So it's looking for people who have people buying multiple deals because the people who, you know, I look at my clients, the smallest percentage of people who just want to get that first deal and then they're going to do it themselves. and they want to, they'll only take one, but most of them just don't have the time, so they'll take more than one or they'll tell a friend. So I think it's finding a sourcer that has repeat clients. It's finding someone who is happy to explain to you what's going on. The amount of times I have sent a due diligence pack and you wanna make sure it's a good due diligence pack to clients and I've said to them, any issues with this, you ring me and they'll ring me and be like, can you... just like explain whatever it is in the pack and we'll go through it in detail. I'll tell them how to check my information. I'll be like, I've told you some management, go ring them and check that the fact that I've told you 120 a night is realistic. Here's, I'll put in my due diligence pack, here's all the comparables. I'll say, you know, this one says 120 a night, click on the link I've given you, check that it is actually 120 throughout the whole year. What price is it? It's about taking responsibility as well. because again, I got burnt by a saucer. Whose fault was that? It was mine. Because did I check the saucer? No. Did I check the information he gave me? No. I just went in blind. So it's about checking that what a person's telling you is actually true. Ring people, ring other managements, look on Airbnb, look on bookings.com, look at hotels, use common sense. Why would people go to that area? and make sure that you are looking at it conservatively with the numbers. If they're saying 150 a night, are they just giving you 150 in summer? What's it making in winter? Look at all of, it's fact finding, gather all the information and check that the person's actually telling you the truth. I love that. Great advice. Really good advice. And then in terms of occupancy rate, Ellen, this is a really interesting one because I sort of sometimes have disagreements with other people about what they would deem would be an inappropriate occupancy rate to sort of base it on a monthly, yearly rate. So what occupancy rates do you kind of usually advise on? I say go at 70 to 75 % occupancy rate. But when you look at the 70 to 75%, you've got to look at the fact that it's going to be a higher amount in summer, a lower amount in winter, and actually get the average. Don't just, and I see sources do it all the time. yeah, this is 75 % occupancy, and they show you the summer number. That's great. But in winter, you aren't making that. But also, Get as much information as you can. So I'll say, okay, yeah, look at 70, 75%, but do understand that, know, contractors, you're probably gonna get that. My properties now are all at the 100 % occupancy with a lower nightly rate because we've got those contractors. They're booking direct. We're not paying Airbnb fees. We're not paying booking.com fees. So kind of gather all of that information and look at best case, worst case, likely case, and go with likely, not the best. Yeah, definitely. I could talk to you for hours about this. There's so much to talk about because obviously we're now talking about contractors and that's a whole different conversation. I'm sure people come to you all the time and they're like, how do I get long term bookings? How do I get contractors? It's like, well, that's a whole different conversation in itself. Yeah. This is why when people look at, I always say stick with one strategy. Like that I've spent four years on Rent2SA to make sure that I know it like the back of my hand. I know the mistakes that I've made, the screw ups that I've had. You know, someone can teach me how to do Rent2SA, but then I learned so much along the way. And I think it's why when you start out, you want to do everything. You're like, oh, Rent2SA, HMO, I want to BRR. If you do everything, you're not doing anything properly. So pick one or if you don't want to, like I know a lot of people, like a lot of my clients, they'll invest in Rent2SA to test an area. Like they're buying properties, but they'll go, okay, I've done this Rent2SA in Liverpool. Damn, the houses are quite cheap on that road. I'm going to buy on that road once I've seen it works. But they then use someone like me who knows Rent2SA like the back of my hand. user management who knows Rent2SA properly. If you're not the expert, stick with experts. I think that's so important. Yeah, absolutely, 100%. And, you know, it's so tricky, like, you know, we eventually managed to get off of getting nightly rates where people were coming in from a leisure perspective in Bournemouth and actually getting the long-term contracts, which did make such a big difference. It really made such a difference, but it's actually learning and understanding how to get those long-term contracts. And it takes time, it takes effort, and it takes relationship building. And so I have to do that almost like... another episode or even within the Girls and Property community and getting you in because yeah it's it's different isn't it it's totally different um different. Exactly. And if you were going to talk about, just to finish off this podcast, one thing that I stopped doing for a long time, but by popular demand, it's sort of people like, Athena, come on, let's get it back to the original of what we used to do with the podcast, which is talking about property disasters and property mishaps. service accommodation, there must be like major ones. So for SA, what story have you got for me that was like a property disaster, property mishap? the dick it have so many. I'm going to do two. I'm going to do one with just an Ellen disaster, which happened the other day, which isn't specifically about SA, but I'm going to say it because I know I wouldn't have said it ages ago. I'm out here and obviously I'm learning how to run my business from out here. So some stuff goes well, but I'm constantly learning. I ordered a sofa for one of the properties and the time difference basically meant that it was go, the sofa was going in whilst I was asleep. and there'd been a miscommunication because we had quite a few sofas between me and the guy who always delivers my sofas. So when I'd clicked on, he'd gone, I'll just check and it's here. I'd gone and locked it in quickly and gone, yeah, no problem. And the next day I saw a picture of the sofa in the property and it was in one of my other properties. So he basically delivered an extra sofa to the contractors in a property that wasn't meant to be getting an extra sofa. And I woke up to it in the morning and was like, my god, like this is what happens when you don't pay full attention to things. And I say it because whenever I listen to people like online or hear them speak, I always felt like everyone had their shit together. And I am chaos a lot of the time. And I feel like everyone's a little bit chaotic and everyone's making a few little mistakes and me getting the sofa delivered to the wrong, thank God it was one of my properties and not just a random had took in my sofa. uh but I just thought that was like a funny, stupid, all fine now, so if it's in the right place, we got it sorted. But that was my stupid mistake that I made recently. And a mistake that I made early on, which I think is a valuable lesson because I think it happens a lot more than people care to admit. And again, I would never admit it at ages ago because you wanna look like the business owner and get everything right and never make mistakes. I set up one of my properties at the start. and I didn't set it up with a ring doorbell. I couldn't see who was going into the property. And I had a lovely guest check into the property who wanted to bring a lot of other guests to the property for the evening. um A guest that I definitely didn't want in my property, but can be quite common in Airbnb's. um And I was so mortified, absolutely mortified because again, you want to be this reputable business owner and it's easy to make mistakes. And I just felt like an absolute failure. And now in all my properties, have ring doorbells. I can see exactly who goes in. We make sure we're vetting every tenant that like every guest that goes in. But yeah, basically I had some night guest stay that I wish had not entered the property and did cause me. a few problems. So that was probably my property essay disaster. But again, from that you learn things like I now like to give all the neighbours my number. So if there's a problem, they can tell me, we can find it quickly. I like to make sure that we've got secure the security measures to make sure we're not having the wrong type of guests stay at the property. And everyone can sit here and say they've never made mistakes, have never had the wrong guests. Everyone's done something wrong. It's bullshit if everyone's going perfectly. We just don't like to admit it because we want to be seen as this success. And I think, you know, we all make stupid mistakes and we all learn from it. So make sure you have your ring doorbells, guys, so you don't have unwanted guests at your property. Definitely. How did you find out if you didn't have the ring doorbell? How did you find out who the guests were that stayed? Oh... Right. it was absolutely and again, so I always think as well like my nan She lived next door to a property that was run as by Anfield Stadium So it was stuck to Central and people would come in They didn't care because they were there for the weekend. They were hammered. They'd throw bottles over the the wall and like that's not fair to my nan. That's not fair to anyone so From day dot I've started my business I was like I actually care about my neighbours because I heard the complaints from my nan. think people just care about the money sometimes and they're like oh you know the neighbour's not going to do anything it's not illegal it's not a problem yeah but that's a person you wouldn't want that done to you so I was absolutely mortified. The neighbours were fine with it in the end like you know we have the security measures we've not had it since it's again why I like long stay contractors not short-term guests. em But it's about making sure you have the neighbour's number, you have that security feature and you actually are checking in on your business. Not just leaving it there for bookin.com to give you crappy guests and have problems. But yeah, absolute nightmare. Absolutely multiplied. I love those stories. I think essay have got the best stories, honestly. They're so good. They're so good. I'll never forget when the when the neighbor called us and they were like, Athena, you need to get to the property. And I was like, why? And they're like, I can hear your your guests. It was it was basically a mom and her daughter. They were like, I think they're screaming about something in the actual flat and I like, my God. So I called them and I was like, are you okay? And they're like, there's water literally like going through the floorboards, like down, down and we can't stop it. They'd had a bath, the bath had overflowed, which is why they were screaming and all the water was going through. And then I went round and the guy, it was offices downstairs and they were like, there's water coming through the ceiling that you're gonna have to fix basically. And I was like, my God. So we had to then call the landlord and the landlord, was on holiday at the time and I was like, oh my God, like this is, I was like, what do I actually do? Because this has never happened to me before. Each time something happens, you're learning on the job. You're like, I've never had water come through a ceiling before. What do you do? Who do you call? How do you fix this? Whilst I've got guests that staying for another month. You know, the guests had, oh. owner as well, doesn't it? Because you're like, I'm someone who beats myself up. Yeah. yeah, but then you've got the question of the fact that they overran the bath. So they overran the bath, which then caused the issue. So then you're like, is this our fault? Is this their fault? They're staying for another month. Will this become awkward? How do you sort it? How do you resolve it? It's all of those things. So it's learning as you go. Yeah, and that's why I think you have to speak to different people and you have to, you just have to be honest. Like we've all, but even that water one that reminded me, the water went off in the street once when we had guests, obviously the guests checked out because they couldn't shower, but the water went off. And then when the water came back on, the shower automatically came back on, but we had no one in the property. So like that could have been an absolute disaster if we didn't have the cleaner going round. because it would have just, you know, it could have caused a massive leak, but you wouldn't think, right, the water's gone back on. The guests might have left the shower on. Like, you can't predict that mistake. Now, anytime the water goes off, I'd be like, right, okay, clean around, like, make sure they've done all this, but you just don't know what to expect. And I think that's why you've got to be so kind to yourself. And that's, again, the journey I'm on this year, where I'm being like, I've made a lot of mistakes, especially since traveling. things have gone right, things have gone wrong. And instead of going, Ellen, this has gone wrong. You don't know what you're doing. I'm like, okay, Ellen, we're four years in, you're still learning to do this. You know, this has happened. Let's make sure it doesn't happen again. Let's put the procedure in place so that, you know, we had one, they got keys cut for the property and they didn't check the spare key, shut the door, it locked automatically, put the spare keys in the lock box and then... someone came to get that key because we having deliveries and they couldn't get in and I didn't think to myself because why would you think okay let me tell the person they need to check the spare keys but now we've got the system in place when you get spare keys caught check they work you don't know until you have that situation It's impossible. It really is. And you're right with what you said. Just be kind to yourself. I think even after three, four years, sometimes we think, right, okay, the businesses are running. We got this. We know what we're doing. And then someone just hit you in the face and you're like, actually, I don't know what we're doing. And that's okay. That's okay. You'll just grow. You know, one of my really good friends always says, you know, if you're not winning, you're learning. So I think learning is what it's all part of. Ellen, so many people are gonna want to touch base with you after this podcast and just be like, Ellen, tell me everything, you know, wizardry of rent to SA. And I love it. think we need more people like you who are real advocate in a positive way for rent to service accommodation. I think it has such a negative stigma. And I think actually it can be successful. It can work really well if you operate it in the right way and you talk to the right people about it. So what would be the best way for people to get in contact with you if they wanted to connect with you? Yeah, so it'd be via Instagram, that's the best way to get in contact. So it's ellen.mcdonald. And yeah, I think just on that topic, obviously what you said about making it realistic, just the more people that you look at, the different people you see how they do it, the more you realize that it's not as bad as people think. Like RentOSA I used to think was only people who had no money. I got into it because I didn't have that much money when I started. But now I have clients who, as I said, test areas. I have people who, they've invested in the stock market and then they've realized that obviously property is a good way of making money. So I think people need to get this idea out of their head that rent to SA is only for a certain type of person and realize that actually rent to SA is great for everyone. It's quicker cash flow, but only when you do it properly as a business. Yeah, that's so important. do you know, I don't know if you'd be up for this, but we've got quite a lot of girls in the girls and property community who are operating and doing rent service accommodation. I would love for you to come in and do a session all about it if you'd be up for it and talking to the girls and... Would you? Would you love it? Okay, cool. I love how I just asked you on the podcast, you have no choice. You've got no choice but to say yes. sounds terrible. I don't want to do that. No, of course, would absolutely love it. I think the more you can tell people the honest stuff, the better. Yes, this is what I want. I'm looking for, I'll tell you what I'm looking for, when people say to me, what is it that you want for girls in property community? I want real honest conversation. That's what I want. I wanna help people and help people in the right way. I don't want them to have fear. I want them to move forward and I want them to feel confident to do so, but I want them to feel confident to do so with their eyes open. That's what I'm looking for and to learn from the right people. um Brilliant, all right. especially like as women, you don't, you don't always see yourself. And I think the more women you can bring together who've gone on this journey, who've become the business owner, who can say what went right and what went wrong, it just makes it easier for more women to actually step up and run businesses and get in property. So yeah, I'd be more than happy to. Yay! Okay, community, watch out, we've got Ellen coming in. So we'll discuss some dates. um And then as always, am Athena underscore underscore, my God, no, no, start that again. I'm Athena Dobson underscore official on Instagram and Girls and Property on Instagram as well. We've got, of course, our three workshops, our in-person workshops that are coming up this year. The next one being, well, the first one being on uh Friday, 6th of June with Sarah Smilescott on social media algorithm. All numbers already confirmed for that one, which is amazing. But we've actually got another one in September, which is super exciting, which is going to be all about the Renters' Rights Bill, which everybody needs to be aware of what's happening. We've got the incredible Julie Ford doing that one for Girls From Property, who's got 30 years experience in the Renters' Rights field. So super exciting on that one. And then AI at the end of the year. And then also just a reminder for community members, we do also have our free summer meetup. which is on Saturday the 5th of July. Of course, it's going to be down in Bournemouth, which is where I'm based, Bournemouth Beach. So if you want any details of that and wanting to join the community to come to the free um summer social, then just let me know. And we're all just going to get together and have a great time and just have those in-person interactions because, you know, in a world which is so male dominated, just meeting up with other like-minded women is super, super important. And just to surround yourself with the right people. So, dear me the word beach or community. And let's have a chat with that one. um And what would be your parting words for everyone that you would like to leave everybody with for this podcast? I think it'd just be that everyone can do this. Like everyone can get started in property, everyone, especially rent to SA and just realize that no one really knows what they're doing. You see something on social media or just still learning. And if you actually want to do it, if you actually want to create a life that you have more control of and that you actually frigging enjoy, it starts with you. taking that first step, just believing in you and going for it. Yeah, beautiful. That's it. That's what you do the podcast with. Just be happy. Just be happy. Love what you do. Take it at your own pace. Go on your own journey. Stay on your own lane, your own path. Don't let anyone dictate to you. And don't let anyone ever make you believe that you can't achieve it because you can. You just got to have the right people around you. Definitely. Ellen, I've loved today. I can't wait to get you in the community and back on the podcast. We have so much more to talk about. Sparkling converse, travel. I love it. Yes, do it, but you're gonna have to lift your leg up for the screen to show us your converse. Ellen, thank you so much for coming on. I've absolutely loved it. And everybody have an amazing week. We'll speak to you soon. yeah, watch out for Ellen coming into the community soon. Take care, everyone. Bye for now.