Navigating the Renters' Rights Bill: Essential Insights with Julie Ford

With the Renters’ Rights Bill gaining Royal Assent on 22nd July and due to be implemented by the end of October this year, this episode is an essential listen for anyone already in property or thinking about stepping into the industry. In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast, Athena Dobson is joined by none other than Julie Ford—one of the UK’s most respected property experts, with over 30 years of hands-on experience in the rental sector and a specialist focus on lettings compliance.

Athena and Julie unpack what the upcoming bill really means for both landlords and tenants, placing a strong emphasis on the power of education and the importance of staying compliant in today’s ever-changing property landscape. Julie shares her invaluable knowledge and experience, offering practical strategies to future-proof your portfolio and keep you one step ahead in the rental market. Her straight-talking insights make this episode your go-to guide for navigating the new legislation with confidence and clarity.

How to get involved with the Girls in Property Community 👇

🎟️ Join our Next Workshop

👩 Join our Community

🎧Listen to other Episodes

I’m hosting a workshop on Friday, 12th September, titled She Means Business: A Chance to Shift, Align and Scale at Audley Wood Manor House in Basingstoke. If you’d like to join, just DM me the word “WORKSHOP.”

GET IN TOUCH

📷 Instagram

📧 girlsinpropertypod@gmail.com

-
Don’t Miss Out! Click here to claim your FREE access to my Mindset Accelerator Programme. Start developing the mindset you need to become an outstanding property investor today! 🚀


Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to another episode of the Girls in Property podcast. Well, if you are tuning in today, I suspect that you are very, very curious, as I am, as we all should be, about the Renters' Rights Bill that is fast approaching and coming up. And I have to give myself a little bit of a pat on the back because I have got the absolute queen and the best person to talk to you about this today. This woman has over 30 years experience knowing everything to do with the renter's rights. And if we are going to be learning from anyone today, it is going to be the person I'm about to introduce you to. So get a pen and paper ready. This is going to be full on educational, a great conversation and one that we all need to get involved with. Whether you are starting out or a seasoned investor, this is the podcast for you today. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce Julie Ford. Hey Julie. Hi, thanks for having me, Athena. I am so excited about today's episode. Like literally, I feel very privileged actually that you agreed to do the podcast. And of course, Cayman was an expert at the Girls and Property retreat because your wealth of experience, is just decades and decades and you have such wealth with it. And I tell you the thing that made me realize it the most and I was so impressed by is I remember at the Girls and Property retreat when I asked you to be an expert speaker. And I thought to myself, this is brilliant. And you were recommended to me by a very credible source within the industry to say, if you want to know about the renter's rights bill, you need to talk to Julie Ford. And it really caught my attention when we all did our expert tables and people were actually stood around your table, not just sat because they were like, we need to hear from Julie. So hopefully this podcast today is going to educate and really help people to understand what is the renter's rights bill. what's happening and why it's so important. So today is gonna be a great educational episode for everybody, including myself. And Julie, before we begin today's episode, what I always start with is I think it's great for people to really understand you as a person as well and kind of understand a bit about, who is Julie? Where did Julie come from? What's her background? How the hell does she even get into the Renters' Rights Bill? And all of the fun that comes with that at the same time because We said it before you came on, it's not necessarily a sexy topic. So it's around, well, how did you get into that? What was the reasoning? And maybe something really interesting about yourself that we don't know about. Okay, so I will start at the beginning. I got into property pretty much by accident. I was 18 years old and I married a squadie, which meant that we were quite transient. We moved around a lot and I couldn't really get a job that needed me to stay in one place. So when we finally settled in North London for a while, I started a job as a new build sales girl. m Unfortunately, I quickly realised I couldn't sell anything to anybody and I wasn't one of those people that could convince someone to buy something if they weren't sure. I neither had the patience or the crayons to sit there with somebody who clearly wasn't interested in buying off plan. But as soon as there was a problem, once they'd purchased, if they came downstairs and said, you know, the tiles fallen off the wall or the mastic round the bath, that was it. I sprung into action. So immediately realised I was a problem solver. So then property management just came as a natural progression really. And I moved again into London, we moved to Knightsbridge and I started working for a large property and asset management company in the city. So we were managing large portfolios of sort of 5,000 properties, but we would do it with what they call financial brokers. So these people would work with their clients. So their clients would be people like, Jensen Button, Ricky Gervais, Craig Bellamy, all of those sort of A-listers and premiership footballers. And we would then manage their property portfolios for them, which had been purchased by their financial broker. And I just kind of progressed from there. I became head of Lettings and Property Management for this asset management company. Then my mum became poorly and I left to go and look after her before she passed away. And then after that, I set up my own Lettings and Property Management company managing around 500 single lets. Eventually I sold that portfolio but retained the business name because I liked it so much. And then it sort of went a bit left field, I suppose. I went over to the dark side and worked for the Citizens Advice. So I went into third sector and I was a housing and homeless law specialist for the Citizens Advice for six years. But I also worked for a homeless charity after that and I was their lease options manager. So I was working with landlords in the private sector. getting the properties on so that we could lease them for five to 10 years to help people get from street homelessness into more settled accommodation, teaching them how to be good tenants. So that's kind of how that progressed. And then COVID hit. And of course, that was kind of the end of my job, really. But I'd also probably in the last two years of that, had begun to realize that I was probably unemployable because of my knowledge and passion for everything, sort of, lettings. It got to a point where managers were intimidated by me because they all thought that I wanted their job. I had one CEO actually say to me, if I don't sack you, you're going to take my job. To which I didn't do myself any favors because I actually said to her, if I wanted your job, darling, I'd already have it. Clearly I didn't stay in that job for long. And then I went into being a consultant and that's kind of where I've been from there really trainer for the NRLA. I've been a trainer for Shelter, a mediator for the property redress scheme, mediating over 500 disputes between landlords, tenants, letting agents. And yeah, so that's kind of where I am now working with landlords and letting agents, teaching them about the renter's rights bill because it's the biggest change that we've seen in 30 years. And yeah, just sort of building my little empire, I suppose. Absolutely. wow, what a story. I love that. And isn't it funny sometimes when we go into these corporate jobs and some people become so threatened, don't they? And they say, oh, you know, if you're still here, I know you're gonna take my job. It's so doggy dog. Do you know, I was told that when I became a marketing executive, the marketing manager at the time at a Liverpool street office was my first ever job. She actually said to me, I know you're gunning for my job. And I said to her, I've got no interest in your job. And she's like, well, I know that you'll take it. And she didn't like me for that. And I found it very bizarre. I was like, hold on, like what's going on here? But clearly it's the best thing that ever happened to you. Cause look at you now, you're just flying. So fabulous. And what is it like out of curiosity to be a dispute uh sort of uh mediator? I bet you have... got the most interesting stories. say it's probably the most mentally draining and mentally exhausting part of what I do because you are only dealing with people when they're at crisis points. They don't come to you when they've won the lottery and asking you how to help them sort out what to do with their money. It's when they're in chaos, it's when they're in crisis, so you're dealing with a lot of other people's emotions. Anger, frustration, fear, all of that all at once. So you have to kind of get past that. And I call that white noise because I try and ignore all of that and just get to the facts. But yeah, mean, mediations when I was at the PRS would usually last around two hours. And after that two hours, you've then got to write it up because it's all still in your head. And after that time, you just like, my God, I'm drained. It just sucks everything out of you. So you could never really do more than one mediation a day because, you know, I knew some firms that would do two or three mediations a day and I don't know how the mediators did it, to be honest with you. Yeah, wow, I bet it is very, very draining. And you make such a good point there that people come to you in crisis mode. So that must be extremely draining. Are you a landlord yourself as well, Julie? Do you have your own properties? I'm not a landlord per se. I do invest in property, but I don't invest in the UK. I invest in France. I've got a whole dealet business out there. So that's pretty much my property investment side of things, but it isn't my main job. This with the legislation and compliance and training is my main job. That's kind of like my retirement fund, I suppose. Yeah, I love that. Oh, do you know what? If we need a place to go in France, I will give you a call. Amazing, I love that. And I bet it's very different, isn't it? Sort of investing abroad to investing in the UK. I bet you've seen lots of differences. mean, the laws and everything are very different. Although I have to say France is much more common sense when it comes to to transaction. But also it's about understanding what they value most and bricks and mortar is not what they value. Land is very valuable out there. So whereas you've got in the UK, most of our farmers are struggling to put food on the table. Actually, in France, most farmers because of the land that they own are multimillionaires, they're actually richer than a lot of their own footballers out there. So the land is very valuable, whereas the bricks and mortar aren't, which is why you see so many properties over there going to rack and ruin because it's just not an interest to them. So I mean, my properties, I bought the first one for just under 10,000 euros. And it was turnkey ready to go three bedroom. So it just went from there. And after the first year, that pretty much paid for itself or less than a year. And then I just kept building on top of that. And I've got a portfolio of 10 out there now. And yeah, they pretty much pay for themselves. So it doesn't need a lot if you know what you're looking for, but you do have to read the small print. The French are funny people. They like to slip in the most nonsense clauses. So I was looking at a lake before I purchased my first property. And I was like, great, I'm going to get a lake. I'm going to put some fish in it. I'm going to get some little pods on the side. This is going to be my business. Yeah, you can have the lake. You can't put fish in it. That's a caveat in the actual deeds. You cannot put fish in it. It must be an unoccupied lake. So I was like, what happens if like a heron happens to fly over and drops a fish in there? I was thinking like all these things I could think of. No, no, that's it. No, you can't have fish in there. So we don't have the lake. And then another property that I looked at, which was beautiful, had a caveat in there. Now, bearing in mind, this property was in the middle of nowhere. nowhere. You would literally have to drive miles just to the local shop. had nothing. Caveat in the paperwork. You can buy the property, but any work that needs doing on it must have a tradesman who's got more than 20 years in the business. He must be an artisan and he must live within 10 kilometres of the property. There was nothing within 10 kilometres of the property other than a sheep. So I don't know how you were going to fulfill that. So the French do have some funky little clauses. Wow, how bizarre is that? And really good piece of knowledge as well to know if you're ever gonna buy in France to read the small print. It's funny when you said the French are funny. I was like, what is gonna come out of her mouth? Like literally, what F word is about to come out? Devina, I will not swear. I love it. And you know what? That's a really interesting fact about you that I didn't know, Julie. I did not know that you invested in France. So fascinating. I love that. Is it sort of Northern France, Southern France, West? at the bottom of the Loire Valley. Oh, gorgeous. Wow. Okay. Definitely going to be talking to you about maybe booking a trip out there. I love that. Okay, Judy. So today, today is really, really important for so many people listening to this. Like I've got no doubt that the downloads on this are just going to go through the roof because so many people I'm sure come to you, come to me and they're like, I don't know what they think they're going to get out of me. They're like Athena, what's going on? And I'm like, why do you think I would know? Like I need to learn as well. I was like, don't worry everyone, I've got Julie. Don't worry, don't panic. We have Julie to help us. So today, hopefully we're gonna get a couple of answers to the questions. And what I thought would be really good is to just get all the lowdown from you. And I've got, of course, a couple of questions that I wrote down to ask that I'm hoping keeps us on track, but really just to kind of explore it with you and really, first of all, understand what even is the renter's rights bill? What's going on? Why was it imposed? When is it being imposed? And what we need to know to future proof ourselves. I think that's the key word on this podcast. Future proof ourselves for it. Because I think if we put our head in the sand like an ostrich and pretend it doesn't exist, that's where the problems are gonna occur. And then people are gonna come to you in crisis mode, which is what you were just saying. So just before I really delve into the renter's rights, we have a really juicy conversation about it. As always, Judy, I always start these podcasts with what we're celebrating at the moment. So apart from your beautiful French, you know, chateaus, what are you celebrating at the moment? So I am celebrating the fact that I will be launching my own Lettings advisory service at the HMO Awards on Friday. Wow, that's huge! Okay, tell me more, tell me more, what's the plan? So the plan is myself and Coho have partnered up to give Coho members an advisory service because at the moment there are advisory services out there provided by other organisations such as the NRLA, AALA etc. But we have found that the feedback on the advice from those services isn't great and unfortunately it's very on the fence, nobody's giving black and white definitive answer because nobody wants to be responsible for that advice, they don't want to commit. So what we're to be producing is a bank of advisors, just like me 30 plus years in the industry with an array of backgrounds to be able to provide exactly that definitive answers. Now, what we will also be doing is whatever the question is, looking at the legalities. what you should be doing, what you shouldn't be doing so that somebody can go away and make an informed decision of the next steps that they're going to take and knowing the consequences even if they do want to be a little cheeky when it comes to the law. So we'll be launching that at the HMO Awards and from that point what we're going to do is have it for the co-home members to start with and then we will branch it out to anybody else who wants to be part of the Lettings Advisory Service really. It'll be for self-managing landlords. It will be for letting agents. It will be for anybody in the industry that wants that level of advice. Wow, that's incredible. That's definitely a conversation with girls on property as well, 100%. Because you're of course in the community and I love having you in the community, Julie, because you give really no emotion. You give solid, great advice, you know. I think the word you're looking for is brutal and blunt. Yeah, but you know what, sometimes that's a positive thing, sometimes that's what you need. And I see you there and I'm like, there she is, she's on it, she's answering the question. And I feel privileged to have you in the community helping all the women. So the fact that you're gonna be actually launching this and doing this is definitely something that I think is so necessary. When I was starting my property journey, I used to call the NRLA all the time. I always was calling their membership. because uh there's loads of things that we don't know and they were great and I did a lot of their foundation courses and as you said, you did a lot of training for them. But the fact that you've actually noticed gaps for yourself and you're now like, actually, I've done my time, I actually can see that I could do this slightly better. I'm very excited for you in terms of what the direction this is gonna go. And um I'm definitely gonna be having some future conversations with you about this because I'm thinking, hmm, this is great. This is what's needed in the industry, so really positive. So yes, fantastic celebration. And I can't wait to obviously celebrate that on Friday. And that would have already been announced by the time this podcast of course comes out next Monday, which is great. And what am I celebrating? I don't know if you saw, Julie, I mean, you'd have seen it from the community and all of the updates. Did you see that I did a Girls and Propsies Summer Beach Party? The weekend, just go. Yeah, did you see? So, my goodness, it was so fun. It was so fun and it was hilarious because. Every other single day, the weather has been absolutely glorious. The day that I decided to host the summer beach party, of course, the universe is like, no, we're going to give you like gale force winds basically. And I was like, of course you are universe. Of course you are. And I was really, really worried about it at the beginning of the day. And I of course watched the weather like a hawk. But what actually ended up happening was the girls that ended up actually coming to it, and we were about 21 by the end, which was more than I was anticipating. was the right women to be there. They had the best attitude. We all had such a laugh. Everyone got to know each other and people actually said to me, they're like, do you know what, Athena, this is better that the weather's like this because I think if it had been really hot and sunny, we wouldn't have lasted that long. Whereas we were actually there from 12 o'clock until six all day, eating food, sharing stories, laughing. And I also invited down some non-community people because I wanted them to experience what girls and property was like. And they said, they're like, this really is like a family, isn't it? This really is a safe place that we can all just come together. And I'm like, exactly. You've got to feel it. You've got to really see it for yourself. So I want to do more of these. I want to do more of these sort of across the UK because I appreciate there's lots of people up in the North that want me to do more. And so I think, I think many meetings. So what I'm going be celebrating is the beach. I'm not going to call it summer. The July beach party that happened. sun not so much, but laughter lots, and also celebrating the fact that I want to do some sort of a winter gathering, a winter sort of, I'm not gonna call it Christmas, because it adds noughts to it if you call it Christmas, but a winter gathering, and potentially going a little bit more up north in the UK to try and bring everybody together. So watch this space, should be great, and just have some fun, yeah, celebrations. Okay, fabulous, let's get into it, Judy. So first of all, before we start anything, let's everyone get on the same page and the same track. So please define and help us to understand what is the renter's rights bill. Okay, so in a nutshell, the Renters' Rights Bill is the biggest change in legislation to the private rented sector in over 30 years. The last time we saw anything like this was the introduction of the Housing Act 1988, which actually introduced Section 21 and the short hold element to what we now know today as ASTs. So the Renters' Rights Bill will pretty much remove everything that we understand and know as the private rented sector today. So it will be removing that section 21. So we're basically going backwards rather than forwards. So that means landlords won't be able to get their properties back for no reason anymore. They'll have to have a reason and fill in different paperwork from what we've known as section 21. They'll remove fixed term tenancies. So this means they'll be periodic from day one. Tenants will also be able to give two months notice from the day of moving. So it will mean how we choose our tenants, how we're doing referencing will now need to be much more robust because we're to have to make sure those tenants are there to stay and we're not caught up in a churn of every two months there's a new tenancy. It's also changing how we are accepting rents and how tenants will be paying rent. So no more rent in advance. You can only take the first month's rent. And also there's a slight caveat that if you sign the tenancy agreement and the tenant doesn't pay the first month's rent, you still have to allow occupation. There's also a change to how landlords will get their properties back. So the grounds are changing, some are being removed and there are 15 new grounds being introduced. So currently we have 21 grounds under section eight. We're going to have 36 grounds under section eight now. So it's really about understanding that from this point onwards, amateur landlords are going to fail. They are because anybody doing this as an after dinner exercise is not going to be with the program. They're not going to understand how this new law is going to impact them so dramatically. It will be about professionalising the industry without anybody having to take a qualification because if you are not up to speed on this, the fines are going to start at£7,000, they then jump to £40,000 and anything that you breach further on from that will also be either criminal or civil prosecution. So you just can't afford to get it wrong anymore. Right, okay, so a lot to unpack there. The first thing I want to say is, is the reason I want to do this podcast with you is because I want to take away the fear from anybody listening to this. I don't want people listening to this, having heard what you just said and fear overcoming them to go, oh no, don't want to do that. I need to, I need to back out of this as it were. um I want everyone to lean in. So if you're listening to this, don't lean out, lean in and let's really understand what it is we need to know. future-proof ourselves and let's get into the game when clearly everybody else potentially could be getting out as a result of this. So don't let these things put you off. Julie, my first question to you is, well, I want to know with this periodic tenancy and the fact that we're no longer allowed to say, know, sign an AST for a year, which you would usually do, and then you're like, right, the tenant is settled for a year, the landlord is settled for a year, win-win, everyone is happy. I want to know, why they introduced this aspect of why they thought it was a good idea for tenants to be able to move into a property, in their notice and be able to literally therefore hand in their notice for their two months, the day that they move in. How is that beneficial to either the tenant or the landlord? This unfortunately was one of those parts of the Renters' Rights Bill that was there to protect a minority but had unintended consequences for the majority. So the reason that this was brought in was because there was a minority of tenants that were trapped in poor accommodation in fixed term tenancies so they couldn't escape. So the reason why they brought in the periodic from day one is if a tenant was trapped in a poor condition property, they then literally only had to give two months notice and they could escape. Unfortunately, the unintended consequences of that for the majority is some landlords who don't reference correctly or have good relationships with their tenants may have that unfortunate every two month churn. So it's had an unintended negative consequence for the majority of people. But realistically, We've got to look at the practicalities. So in the private sector, on average, when you look at any statistics that are carried out by the English Housing Survey or Office of National Statistics, the average tenancy is 4.6 years. That's how long tenants stay in occupation. Just because this new legislation is being brought in, tenants aren't suddenly, miraculously, going to become transient. They're not going to want to move every two months. Moving is stressful and it's expensive. People aren't going to do that. They want homes, they want security, they want to settle. They've got kids, they need kids in that area to go into the schools. They're not going to want to move. So yes, there are going to be some landlords that unfortunately are caught out by this two months notice. But I think realistically as an industry, I don't think it's going to have that much effect because tenants move because they want to live in an area. If their circumstances change, then yes, they've got the opportunity to leave without being tied into that fixed term. But I think that's going to be a lot less than maybe the media is making it out to sound because, you know, 4.6 years as an average tenancy isn't going to change overnight. And you know, I'm so glad that you said that. Just taking a pause on some of my questions I was gonna ask and I'm just gonna take a pause on that. I'm a landlord, of course, Julie. So this is something that I'm really interested in finding out about. But you're 100 % correct, know. Like, if you create a good home for somebody to be in, somebody wants to be in that home, they don't actually want to move. And you're right. I think that the media can be prone for scaremongering. I think it's how the media, it's a different conversation for a different day, but I feel like... The media can sometimes do that from a controlling aspect. And I think actually I see this, dare I say, and I'm sure I'm going to have a lot of people come at me with pitchforks, I actually see this as a really positive thing because I think it's going to get rid of a lot of bad landlords. Whereas for me, I hold true to think that I'm a good landlord. I create good, clean, lovely homes for people to live in and therefore they've been in their... for a long time. And actually all of mine have now gone on to rolling contracts. They've all gone over the year, they're all on the rolling contracts. And so, and they're still there and they will be there. So I agree with you. I don't think this is something to be afraid of. I think this is something to think not about what could go wrong or what could go right and to have that attitude to it. So just because they can go out within the two months doesn't mean that they will. So I think that was a great point that you just made. In your opinion, because I wanted to ask this question upfront because I really want to understand it more, what problems do you think that the bill is actually trying to solve? The bill is trying to solve rogue landlords. That's what it's trying to do. It's trying to eradicate rogue landlords. But the problem you have is when you're trying to eradicate a minority, you ultimately affect the majority. So there is probably in the grand scheme of things, we know there are 2.85 million private landlords out there that currently have the sector, which is I think it's 4.6 million private homes. em Those rogue landlords will always go under the radar. That's what they do. That's how they operate. Bringing in additional legislation isn't going to make a blind bit of difference because they're still going to be under the radar. You're not going to find them. The only difference with this bill with the database coming in where all landlords have to be on this database, if a property is suspected of being rented out and it's not on a database, then that's the only way that the local authorities will start to be able to find and weed out these rogue landlords. But ultimately, you know as well as I do, especially if they're set up as limited companies, they'll just dissolve the limited company Phoenix to something else and start all over again. although I can see the logic in the renter's rights bill and what it was trying to achieve making private rented much safer for the tenant, I think actually it hasn't achieved that at all when you actually read what the manifesto was. from Labour to what they've actually created in the Renters' Rights Bill, they're quite a juxtaposition of themselves. Right, okay, well let's look a little bit more into that. before you came on the podcast, just talking about the actual manifesto itself, remind me again how many pages there are and how many changes have been brought in, you told me. so the Renters' Rights Bill when it was first laid to Parliament under Labour was 289 pages long. Yes, I read every single one of them. As the amendments went through, so the last time we had amendments was just through this report stage and committee stage and again that was 44 pages and there were 390 odd amendments that came through to the Bill. Some of those have been put forward. think out of those 300 odd, I think 42 have actually been voted through. So will be written into the bill. The report stage actually finishes on the 15th of July. And the third and final reading of the bill has already been tabled for the 21st of July. Now, The 21st of July is really significant and it shows how quickly the government wants to get this bill through because government actually retire for summer recess on the 22nd of July. So it does mean if they've got the third reading on the 21st, then they can get it in front of King Charles by the 22nd and have royal assent before they go to summer recess. Gosh, that's what I wrote down. I literally wrote, Assent is happening on the 22nd of July, which is this month. It's round the corner. Gosh, gosh, gosh, gosh. So just so that we know, if people are like, Athena, what is Royal Assent? What's going on here? So what would that mean? If it goes through to King Charles with the Royal Assent, et cetera, it could be passed as law, basically. Yeah, so basically all Royal Assent actually does is change it from a bill to an act and actually puts it on the statute book. So that's all Royal Assent does. It doesn't make it law on that day. So King Charles will put his signature on it and turn it into an act. And it can then sit on the statute books until someone decides to have an implementation date. Now we're expecting that to still be October because that's what Matthew Penacook wanted. And if it's got royal assent in July, it makes sense for it to come in in the October. But we will be given a notice of when that implementation date is. And it is never usually on the day that it is given royal assent, unless the country is in crisis. And we had that with the Coronavirus Act of 2020. It was given royal assent and came into legislation with immediate effect, but that was required. The Renters' Rights Bill will have some time between royal assent and it actually becoming legislation. Okay, so we all need to be aware of dates. So really at this moment, 21st of July is a date for the diary to know what's going on there. uh And then October, October time, with the date then being when it will actually then be implemented and come into effect. Okay, so this is why we're having this conversation now is because so that we can future proof for ourselves. So a lot of people that listen to this podcast, Julie, are people I would say, who potentially Let's take two sets of people. So people who are in full-time jobs at the moment and looking to get into property, looking to get into property investing, potentially they have one bitelet already, two bitelets, maybe we're an accidental landlord, got into it and are now looking to go into this to make an income from it. And they're listening to this podcast and they're going, Oh gosh, Judy just said at the beginning of this one, you know, if we're an amateur landlord, we're in big, big trouble. So what advice would you give to them if they are starting out how they can future-proof themselves? I think it's all about education, to be honest with you. You know, wouldn't go into any business not knowing how that business or that industry operates. And property is no different. You know, if you wanted to set up a burger van at the side of the road, you would find out how hot you've got to have your oil. Do you need a license to sit there? Property is no different. So you educate yourself to understand what the industry needs of you. Now, if you are starting out in property with one buy to let, you're going to need to know less than somebody who's setting up a letting agent and needs to also know agency business. So it's understanding that you can only take one step at a time. You can never know it all. I've been in this industry over 30 years and I still learn something new every day. It's important to know you will never know it all and it's even more important to know there's never ever a stupid question because You don't know what you don't know. It's unconscious incompetence. If you don't know it, you don't know it. Regardless of how much you think, you're still not gonna know it. So don't be afraid to ask, but always make sure the people you're asking and the people you're aspiring to be like, so, you know, the people that you want to be, make sure that they are only one or two steps ahead of where you are. If you're speaking to somebody who has been in the industry, m for 20 years and has got a multi-billion pound property portfolio, they're not going to remember what it was like to be you with one property worrying that the rent didn't come in. Make sure you're only talking to people who are one or two steps ahead of you. And then when you're where they are, start to speak to people who are one or two steps ahead again. That's how you'll progress because their knowledge will be much fresher and their experience much more real than somebody's who in upper echelons of property won't even remember what it was like down there. Great advice, Julie. Fantastic advice. Yes, I love that. Amen. Amen all the way. Absolutely. uh yes, yeah, I love that. Okay. And then one of the things that I want to find out is how, how will this change then like a landlord's life day to day, would you say? Like, let's take the landlord for the second and then we'll take the tenant. So how's it going to change a landlord's life day to day? I don't think it's going to change the landlord's life much, to be honest with you. The legislation is changing. again, it's just landlord needs to be up to speed with what those changes are. It's going to be really easy to adapt our business models to take in this new renters rights bill because it's just about understanding process. You know, at the moment, I think we've all got a little bit lazy with the knowing that, you know, tenant signs on the dotted line for 12 months, right? We can park that they're in there, they can't leave. Same with Section 21, I think Section 21 is used quite lazily because judges can't object to it, they have to give possession. So it's been used, I think, for a lot of the wrong reasons. Getting rid of Section 21 just means that now you've got to have a reason, you've just got to know those reasons. But also, it's gonna be about outsourcing. A lot of the time, landlords who self-manage are trying to wear all the hats, like we do in business, you know, we're the accountant, we're the chef, we're the... with a PA, with everything to ourselves, we've got to learn now that part of the business strategy moving forward with the Renters' Rights Bill is outsourcing to specialists who know their stuff. So if you need to evict, don't try and do it yourself. Section 21 was easy to complete. If you knew your name, the tenant's name and address and you could work a calendar, you could make a Section 21 work. Section 8 is much more detailed. It requires you to know verbatim. the wording in section two of the Housing Act of 1988 and the grounds. It requires you to give an explanation of why you're using that ground and give evidence. If you want to pay somebody to do that, then you have the peace of mind that that eviction is going to work. You're not going to have it thrown out because judges will look for any opportunity to throw it out. If the tenant's name is spelled wrong, if the postcode's wrong, anything because... They're going to be so overwhelmed in courts. They're going to go, right, the admin is wrong on that. Just get rid of it. So getting a specialist to do it is going to be vital when it comes to evictions. But you're going to have to know what those specialists are supposed to do because the problem we've got, especially with letting agents, letting agents in this industry are not regulated. So anybody can set up as a letting agent. So they could have been a hairdresser on Monday and a letting agent on Tuesday. The problem with that is they don't know the legislation. They have no time served in the industry. And the problem with that is they don't know this new legislation because they didn't know the old legislation. They don't know what the changes are. I work with letting agents on a daily basis and it scares me the amount of agents out there. There's around, I think, 20,000 letting agents out there. And it scares me on a daily basis the amount of agents I speak to. They're just like, yeah, well when it comes in, then I'll think about it. they are not even future proofing their businesses, so they're certainly not future proofing their landlords' And I think landlords now need to be the ones that are keeping a check on their own agents if they've got agents managing the property. Because if the agent messes it up, it's not the agent that's going to go to court and get the fine, it's going to be the landlord. Yeah, I agree with you. And just on that note, you know, I've had some conversations with some people recently. um And I have said to them, I'm like, this renters rights was really serious. Like it's really serious. And it is coming into effect. And I was mentioning the fact that I was going to get you on the podcast. And I was talking to them about about really needing to understand it and learn about it. And their response to me was well, I don't manage my properties anyway. I've got an agent that manages them. So I'll just wait for the agent to tell me what to do. And I sort of pause and I said to them, well, I don't think that's the best way to do it because the agent's not going to know what's going on. And then by the time it comes in, it's too late. And then you're in crisis mode instead of future proofing. And if I'm honest with you, I think that is the um attitude of a lot of people. Even you might be listening to this podcast, guys. nodding your head going, I'm a little bit guilty of this. Thinking, I'll wait till it comes. I'll wait to see what happens or I'll wait to hear what the agent's got to say to me. But this is, we've got to take responsibility. Like this is our property. We need to take account of this. So I love the fact you just said that actually. And funny, I didn't know that. You you say you learn something new every day. It's a bit like a broker, isn't it? A broker just can literally become a broker the next day. Same with an estate agent. So I didn't know that. um But really, really fascinating. So again, really important to have this conversation now and almost get ahead of the estate agents in a way so that you're clued up on it. um Very important. One thing I was just thinking, Julie, as you were talking there was I was trying to put myself in a position and I was trying to think about this from a positive standpoint, because I think that's an important way to think of things. Let's think of the positivity. So let's take an example. And as I'm sure everybody has had, I've had it before where I've signed a contract for a year with a tenant in a HMO, for example. And after two months, they've just stopped paying. And they've of course got this contract for this fixed year. And let's face it, some of these people, some of these tenants, they know the system back to front. They know the system, they've been in the system, they've learnt it. And by the way, they start quoting you sections from... from all of these things you're like my god what we're dealing with here so let's think about this from a positive standpoint let's say that there is no more fixed um fixed agreement fixed ast how does that benefit me as a landlord if for example after two months my tenants not paying me Well, it doesn't benefit you, to be honest with you. That is one of the huge negativities of this new renters rights bill. So the tenant can give two months notice at any point, as we've discussed. But for a landlord, if the tenant falls into rent arrears, as with the fixed term tenancy that we're going to lose, the landlord could always have issued section eight at any point as soon as the tenant is two months in rent arrears and move forward. Under the renters rights bill, actually the tenants going to need to be three months in rent arrears and the landlord's going to have to issue a four week notice. So technically, landlord's going to be four months in rent arrears before they can go to court. So what landlords can do to future proof that and make sure they're not in that financial problem is It goes back to vetting those tenants, doing as much research on them as you possibly can. But having those awkward conversations super early on. And I say, as soon as the tenant is a day late or a penny short, you need to be picking that phone up and asking them if everything's okay. And it's important to know how to have that conversation. It's no good picking the phone up and going, bitch, where's my money? That's not going to get you anywhere because they're going to go and put the phone down. If you pick the phone up and go, Hi John, I see your rent hasn't come in. Is everything okay? there anything I can do to help? That completely changes where that conversation is going to go. Now it doesn't mean you have to be soft and let them off and believe every sob story they're gonna give you, but it helps you to understand immediately whether they are a can't pay or whether they are a won't pay. If they're a can't pay, then there are loads of things that you can do as a landlord to support that tenant. You can help them get signposted to Citizens Advice, Universal Credit. And, you know, there's other things out there as well that people don't realise. There's actually £1.7 billion worth of funding that tenants can tap into if they're failing to pay their rent. That's government funding, as well as local council funding and local charities, legacies and trusts. And if you are aware of that and can work with the tenant to get that paid off, I work with a lot of landlords in those situations. I've just worked with one now where the tenants were husband and wife. They both worked in the education industry. Unfortunately, due to one of them having a mental breakdown, the other one had to stop work to look after them. So of course they're completely out of work. So I contacted a couple of educational charities and managed to get their seven grand's worth of rent arrears paid by these charities. So it is possible that you can mitigate these things as long as you know where to look, but ultimately communication is going to be key and communicating via WhatsApp or text message or email. is your last resort. And I know everybody loves a WhatsApp group, but I hate them with a passion. And simply because if that tenant is struggling to pay and maybe they're struggling to pay something else, their gas, electricity, council tax, whatever, they're going to be in panic mode. They're going to have their head in the sand and they're not going to want to talk to anybody because nobody likes confrontation. So if you've got a tenant in that situation and you're sending a text message, it doesn't matter how long you've you've spent on that text message making sure it's okay, it doesn't say anything, it shouldn't, and you've made sure it's the nicest possible text message. They're only going to read it in the frame of mind that they are in, not the tone that you've sent it, because it's text and they are reading it in their own mind. So picking up the phone and hearing someone's tone of voice, hearing their sincerity makes it much easier for the person at the end of the phone who's in crisis. to actually want to work with you rather than reject you. That's a great piece of advice. That is a great piece of advice. I think I've been guilty of that. I love a WhatsApp. I am sending a WhatsApp. That's something I will definitely take on, Julie, is picking up the phone and speaking to them. I'm just trying to think to myself about the future and I'm trying to think to myself, like, let's say that I needed to go and find a new tenant for the properties. You know, it's gonna be making it, I think, potentially a little bit more difficult for tenants to actually be accepted into properties. In a way, what we want to do with the government, I suspect, and what they all want to do is to encourage the private rented sector. They've got people without homes and they need them to get in, as it were. And actually, what's now going to happen is, is landlords are going to be a little bit more scared and a bit more skeptical to take on um people into their properties. And now it's going to almost create this difficulty, as it were, and this... um What's the word I want to use? um I've forgotten the word, but... They're just scared around it and have a scarcity mindset around it of what could go wrong. Well, what could I do? And I understand about due diligence, but sometimes it's just the way that life happens as well and jobs could be lost and you never know, do you? So what's your sort of opinion about the whole thing? I I actually wrote an article on this that I think the Renters' Rights Bill will actually create a dystopian society when it comes to tenants. You'll have those who are literally tick box exercises. They've been in their job for 10 years. They've got a fantastic salary, credit scores through the roof. You know, they're perfect. They are the tenants that are going to get through. Anybody who is on a zero hours contract or maybe just one of those people that goes from job to job, maybe their credit score isn't amazing because they didn't... pay a mobile phone bill six years ago or something, they're not going to be rented to. And there's more of them than there is of perfect tenants. And that's going to be the problem. think landlords and letting agents as a whole are going to be more choosy because that's how they're going to be protecting themselves. But I would also say the fact that we can't take rent in advance anymore is going to be a huge disadvantage for tenants because... they could have been in a position where their credit score wasn't amazing, but they can give six months upfront, that gives landlord that peace of mind that actually even for just six months, I know the rent is covered. We can't do that anymore. So I think it's gonna be again, a case of looking at how we future proof and safeguard ourselves and things like rent guarantee insurance is going to be something that is going to be a must, not a well possibly or what if it's going to be a must for every tenant, there's gonna have to be tenant insurance because If the tenant stops paying and you know you've got to wait three months, another month while you're serving the notice, that's four months. And for people whose that's their only property, that cashflow could be fatal. So insurance is going to be the thing that everyone's going to have to start factoring in to their ROI and everything else that they're doing. Because without that insurance, then there isn't really much support out there for landlords moving forward. Do you think that some landlords would um ask the tenants were to pay for that? Possibly, but it would be against the law. It would breach the Tenant Fees Act of 2019. Right, so don't do that people. Okay. This is why we need Julie. Okay, so yeah, so I was just trying to think to myself like what landlords could do is what I was thinking there. all that will happen is with these extra costs that landlords are incurring, they'll put the rents up. That's what will happen. So again, tenants will be directly affected negatively because of this. Do you know what I'm trying to think to myself there, Julie? I was trying to put myself in the tenant's position. So I own my home now, but there was a time where I didn't. And the time where we didn't, and my partner were travel consultants and it was during COVID. And I'll never forget the way I was made to feel where we just kept getting rejected without, weren't even allowed to view properties. because we were travel consultants. And it's like, as soon as we said we worked in travel, it was like a swear word and we were instantly rejected by people. And so I know what that feels like to be that person. And now if you think about it, although we managed to buy our property, which is a whole different story with mortgage lenders, I can imagine that Steve being a zero contract person and a music teacher without a technically full-time job and me being a business owner, we'd probably be... be there saying, no, we don't want Athena and Steve, even though we're more than credible, even though we'd be great tenants. And so it puts me in a really interesting position because I did that for my tenants who moved in about two years ago. They had a really bad credit history and the agent said to me, don't take them on, don't have them in. And I said, no, I don't think that's fair. So I called them and I said, what's it due to? And it's because his dad was really sick and so therefore they got in a lot of debt. And all I did was I called their old landlord that they had for seven years. I asked them questions and I asked for that. So I did a of my own due diligence and they went in and they've been the best tenants, like the best tenants ever since. And so I'm very conscious and thinking to myself, I want to make sure that tenants do feel welcome, tenants do feel that, but it's going to be tough when landlords have already got a really negative story and it's going to make them feel even more. um on the back foot with all of this. That's my biggest concern for tenants. Yeah, absolutely. And I think tenants are going to have to start looking at more inventive ways that they stand out. maybe there's something in there about having like a tenant CV. So the tenant comes already prepared. And you said about getting a reference or speaking to the previous landlord. I think that's a good idea because you see their immediate history. But I think the landlord before that is probably more important because the current landlord, if they are a terrible tenant, is going to tell you they're an angel to get rid of their problem. Now they're your problem. But the landlord before who has already got rid of them has nothing to lose by telling you the truth. So I think that before landlord is probably more important than the immediate landlord, because you then get a better truer picture of what that tenant is like. I know that the tricky thing is, is trying to get hold of their details and then the tenant then telling you, there was no previous landlord when I bet there was. Yeah, tricky, isn't it? Quick question for you, Julie, then. So with all of this in mind and everything that we're talking about, we're at the moment talking about, you know, buy-to-lets and potentially some HMOs and things. My question to you is, is there are going to be people out there that are choosing their strategies, choosing the direction they want to go as a property investor. Do you think that the Renters' Rights Bill is going to affect the strategy that they will choose? think it will, absolutely, because it's like I say, it's the biggest change in legislation and it provides more risk, but everybody can work with risk management. As long as you know, you know, what you can put in place to mitigate, as long as you've already thought of the worst case scenario, found a solution and worked backwards, then it shouldn't be too much of an issue. People will always need somewhere to live and the private rented sector, no matter how hard the government try, will never be gotten rid of. because it suits certain lifestyles. You know, there are people out there that don't want to own a property and that's perfectly okay. And there's people out there that don't want social housing because that in itself comes with a stigma that they don't want to be attracted to. So the private rented sector is needed. People will always need homes. And yes, we have people on the waiting list for social housing. Yes, we have homeless people. think there's around 230,000 people that are currently classed as homeless. But interestingly, there's over 600,000 empty properties in the UK. So you could actually solve the homeless crisis overnight if you brought those empty properties back into play. So maybe that's a strategy for people looking at empty homes. How much will it cost to refer those, bring them back into the sector? And there you are, kind of problem solved. But ultimately, it's never going to be a strategy that should be ignored. I mean, I see on TikTok quite a lot, you've got people saying, buy to let is dead. No, it isn't, because people will always need homes. know, ultimately, we are there as private housing providers. That's what landlords do. We are a housing provider. The fact that we're called landlords, I think is one of those antiquated words that needs to be changed. We are no longer lords of the land. That's just nonsense. We are private housing providers. That's what the media and the government need to understand because if you suddenly eradicate the private sector, you've got 4.6 million people you now need to house. We're to do them. Yep, exactly. Exactly. And it's this notion also, I'm just thinking to myself, I speak to a lot of people who have got student HMOs, for example, and I know that they're very, very worried because they've usually relied on these, you know, fixed ASTs and things. So what would, what are you thinking about from the student aspect of the HMOs? I think again that that just needs to be thought through and what will your solutions be because you are going to get that one tenant who's fallen out with everybody else because someone's ate their cheese and they just want to go. You know it's gonna happen so look at how you can solve that problem. The issue is one tenant gives notice they actually give notice for all of the other tenants whether they want to or not so that one tenant will automatically end the tenancy. So you as a landlord can now have a conversation with, let's say, the remaining four. Do you want to stay? Great. Sign a new contract. But the rent is what the rent was. It's now between the four of you rather than the five of you. So you're paying more. You could look to replace that tenant, get a new one in. So they would then just be added on to the tenancy. So there's solutions out there. But the problem with the student market is finding a replacement tenant isn't going to be as easy because most students are settled in their accommodation before their courses start. If you then get somebody who is a professional coming into that student house, you lose your student house rights. So council tax now starts to be liable and things like that. So it's important to understand how and who you replace that tenant with. But ultimately it's going to happen. probably, I would think it will probably happen more in the immediate coming in of the bill because tenants will just take it for granted that they can leave when they want. But then I think everyone will realise that that's just not how life works and they need somewhere to live for their course or whatever it is and every other HMO is already going to be taken so they're going to struggle to find somewhere to live. So I think if it does happen it will be short lived but then it will just be the odd occasion where literally everyone's fallen out and someone needs to move out and it's just about how you plan to resolve those issues. Yeah, really interesting. I love how you said somebody ate my cheese. Do you love cheese? No, but I have had that before in an HMO that I managed. Yeah. The stories of the HOIs are brilliant. But it's interesting, isn't it? Because then that person directly then affects the rest of the house where their rent then increases, which of course, traditionally, the parents pay. So the parents then get affected by it. Yeah, it's a very interesting time, I think. I'm not sure about any of this. I'm really just gonna think to myself, hmm, what's the best way to future-proof? We come back to the key word. And it's almost like a flow chart that you've always got an exit or a solution for each problem that arises so that you're ready to go when the time comes, definitely. And then, Julie, what would you say, like, what I really want to know from you is, like, if you were to say to somebody listening to this podcast today in terms of what you think, like, this is the biggest concern that I have, or this is the biggest thing that you need to know about to go forward, that you really want... everybody to know, more than anything else, what would be that thing you'd want to say. Well that is a really really good question. m I think probably the most important thing is understanding that you cannot take rent in advance and the fact that a lot of people I think when they're looking at their property strategies, sometimes that is the strategy, they will only take tenants who will pay rent in advance for example and they factor that into their cash flow. You can't have that anymore and I think that's going to be the biggest killer for a lot of people because that rent in advance has been sort of the safety net really. um and they won't have that anymore. um But yeah, just ultimately, I don't think there is just that one thing that's vitally important. All of the key points of the Renters' Rights Bill are as equally important because they all have their own individual impact, whether it's positive or negative, and not knowing them is, I think for some landlords, probably going to end their property business because uh a 40 grand fine for getting it wrong a couple of times is enough to bankrupt anyone. Yeah, by goodness, absolutely. And yeah, it's tricky, isn't it? Because we used to take rent upfront as well, especially if you had bad credit history. And I suppose a lot of people, even when the legislation comes in, they're probably going to play the naive card, aren't they? And go, oh, I didn't know, and all of this. And they'll probably let off once and then see how things go. Well, I don't think they will be let off because the thing with the Renters' Rights Bill, changes how local authorities will deal with people who get it wrong. So at the moment, they have, the local authorities have a power. Now that power means they can choose, it's discretionary whether they actually act on it. But the Renters' Rights Bill brings in a duty. That means that the councils are legally bound to act if they find somebody has breached the legislation. If they don't, they're actually in breach of the legislation themselves. And to couple with that, all of the fines that the councils put out to landlords, they actually get to keep the money. It doesn't go back in the government coffers. So you can imagine that's a much bigger incentive for local authorities to go out there and do enforcement because they get to keep the money. Wow, gosh, gosh, gosh, gosh, right. And then finally, what's your opinion about getting guarantors on the properties? Yeah, absolutely. And I think again, this is probably going to be how we change our business model. think guarantors are going to be the way forward. But it's important to understand that the responsibilities of guarantors change under the Renters' Rights Bill as well. So if the guarantor is directly related to the tenant, and sadly that tenant passes away, then the guarantor's liability dies with their tenant. So I think it's going to be important to understand who our guarantors are going to be. and making sure the guarantors know their liability. Because in some cases, guarantors have only been guarantors for the fixed term. Once it goes into periodic, then the guarantor agreement ends or a new one is signed. Now we're periodic from day one, the guarantor needs to understand they are guarantor for the lifetime of that tenancy, whether that's six months or six years, there's no get out of jail card. But I think... there's going to be a huge rise in guarantor companies. So people like Housing Hand, UK Guarantor, those are the companies that will be better placed to be guarantors. They also have better terms and conditions if the tenant passes away, they're not related, so they'll carry on paying all of the liability. And I have actually been speaking to Housing Hand and I know that they are changing their terms and conditions to protect landlords more. to ensure that if a tenant stops paying, they'll be paying out almost immediately so there's no gap for the landlord in rent arrears. And also with rent guarantee insurance on top, you've then got your legal cover paid for as well through your insurance. So landlords should be pretty much financially secure with a guarantor company and rent guarantee insurance. Right, there is so much to know. If people were like listening to this podcast, they're nothing along, they've made all their notes, Julie, where is the place that they can go and read all of this for themselves and get clued up about it? Where's the best place to go? There isn't anywhere. Unless they want to sit down and read all 289 pages of the Renters' Rights Bill, there isn't a lot out there, to be honest with you. Everyone is just really sort of taking from their own interpretation of how the bill is written at the moment. I I follow a couple of key housing solicitors, David Smith and Ryan Heavens. They speak in non-legal speak. So it's always quite nice to have it in plain English and they break it down. They're always really good. But a lot of the time it is literally just keeping yourself up to date with what's being published on the government website because directly from the government website, you know it's factual. Unfortunately, if you start going to other organizations, sometimes it's regurgitated and misinterpreted. You get a bit of a Chinese whisper situation. I'm a tenant myself at the moment. I rent and the letting agent actually sent out an email to, I presume, all of the tenants. about the renters rights bill and I went through it with a highlighter pen and a red pen and I was like that dates wrong, that's not correct, it's not actually the renters reform bill anymore, it's the renters rights bill. So even the agents aren't getting it right. So if you want to be on top of the game, it's going to seminars, it's listening to webinars that are put on by people who are directly involved with the bill. So like David Smith. Good Lord, for example, put on quite a lot of free webinars. They're great to listen to because usually David or Ryan are on there. So you're getting it straight, almost straight from the horse's mouth. But it is just literally taking the time to absorb as much information from credible sources as possible. Doing some training, the NRLA have currently got a renters rights bill training course. I do a renters rights bill training course. So it's important to make sure that where you're going are credible sources. that are directly linked to how this bill has progressed, rather than just relying on your letting agent, because from what I've seen so far, letting agents are the biggest culprit for putting their head in the sand and expecting that they will be reactive rather than proactive when this bill comes in. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that proactive, random, reactive. Absolutely. Wow. Julie, I have loved today's episode. I think it's so important and such an important topic. And as you said, let's listen to the podcast. Let's get loads of information. And of course, tomorrow night, you're actually coming into the girls and property community. So date wise, that is going to be, let's just double check. That'll be Tuesday, the 15th of July, tomorrow night at 7.30 PM. Cause I think this is such an important conversation that everybody needs to know about. but of course you're coming in for the girls to do that. if anybody is like listening to this and going, need to hear from Julie, she will be in the community tomorrow night at 7.30. Just DM me the word community and I will send you a link to of course join the girls and property community so you can gain access to Julie who is an active member in there. But it's like you said, it's not sexy. It's not sexy, but it's important. So let's really understand what is going on today. And Julie, I'd love to sort of just as you're parting kind of em words for this podcast, I sometimes ask this question to people who I think will have a really interesting answer to this because it's a question that I was once asked on a podcast and it completely stumped me for about three minutes. And so I'm curious to hear what your answer will be to this. The podcast guest said to me, what's one thing you wish that somebody would have asked you in your life that nobody has ever asked you that you wish that people would have known? Yeah, that stumped me. Yeah, stumped me for three minutes. m I think it's not that I wish somebody would have asked me so much as I wish people would understand that when you are a strong person a lot of the time that is a front and actually underneath we're quite squishy and I think I get a lot especially in the industry that that we're in in property, it is very maldominated. We just have to put our big girl pants on and we'll just work with that. We're not going to change it, we just have to live with it. But I think I get a lot of, it's just Julie, it doesn't matter. I get that a lot because people see this strong exterior and think I am incapable of being upset and hurt. So they'll say things that aren't very nice and it's just Julie, it doesn't matter. I get that a lot. And I wish people would just take that moment to realize that the hard exterior is it just that? actually it does hurt underneath sometimes. Wow, that's such a brave and powerful thing for you to say. I absolutely love that and you'd have inspired so many people. So they can say hurtful things and say, it doesn't matter. It's just Julie. Really? That's not acceptable at all. And you know what was so wonderful is I really, really hope, Julie, and I really hope it from the bottom of my heart, is when you came to the retreat to Girls and Property and you saw the support you had around your table and the amount of people that wanted to learn from you. um I hope that gave you like the biggest confidence booster ever because I think you're fabulous. I really do. And I think that the world needs more Julie's if I'm honest with you. Just, know, no, no, I think I tell you what I think Julie, another thing that you just said, I think it's a beautiful way to finish this podcast. Actually, I speak to so many women on this podcast, obviously so many women and all of us are quite driven, ambitious women who just want to make the world a better place. And I think sometimes what people see instead is they see these powerful women and they think, she's assertive, she's quite domineering, she's like this. And it's like, actually, no, that isn't what it is. It's a quality and it's a positive thing to be empowered. It's a positive thing to be ambitious, never a negative thing. So never let anyone ever say, you're too ambitious, you're too assertive. No, just me, you know? So I hope that... That's a great thing you've just said. think you'd have inspired a lot of people with that. So thank you for that. Glad I asked you. See, I knew you were the right person to ask. But I would just add to what you've said there when people say, you you're you're to this or you're to that. No, you're not. You're just too much for them. And that's their problem. You're never too much because you'll be you'll be just right for somebody else. But if you in this industry, if we don't strive to be the best that we can be, then I think we're failing ourselves anyway. Beautiful. And I think that's the perfect way to finish the podcast. I think that's gorgeous. Julie, so many people are gonna wanna get in contact with you directly. I'm sure that they already are, but so many new listeners that come into this podcast as well for Girls and Property. So where is the best place for people to get in contact with you? That will be directly on my website which is gothardrow.com Brilliant, and are you on socials as well? am, yes. I'm pretty much on all of them, I think. So across all social media, apart from LinkedIn, where it is just Julie Ford, across my social media, I'm juliefordtv. Julie Ford TV, brilliant. And as always, I'm Girls in Property on Instagram and also Athena Dobson, Athena Dobson underscore official on Instagram, but I am of course on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. Drop into my DMs as always. Just repeat, tomorrow night we have the incredible Julie coming in to do a live, a live session where you can have your questions and answers asked. So if you are a Girl in Property community member, make sure you are there at 7.30 and if you are not, and you've been waiting and thinking, Athena, I've just been waiting for the right time to join. I'm telling you, this is the one. This is the one to join on because if you're getting into property or you are in property, there is no excuses, guys. You're gonna need to know about the renter's rights bill. So this is your sign and this is your moment. Just DM me the word community. Come and have a chat with me. Even if you're not sure if it's for you, let's have a conversation. And then finally, a couple of you have been DMing me and messaging me about my date that I'm doing on my workshop, which will be Friday, the 12th of September. It is called She Means Business. uh I am going to be hosting it myself for 20 women, and it's all going to be shifting, aligning, and scaling your businesses and taking a bird's eye view and really looking at you as a person and what it is that you want to do with your business and property ventures going forward. Already, I announced it last week, already 11 spaces have already sold, so we've only got nine spaces left. So if you are interested, DM me the word workshop and let's have a chat about it. m But Judy, I'd really love you to... be the person with the last words for the listeners today. So what are the last words that we're to take away from this podcast today? The last words we're going to take away from this podcast today is compliance may not be sexy, but it's the one thing that's going to save your life. There you go. See you tomorrow night, guys. 7.30. Thank you, Julie. Thank you for giving me all your energy and time and thank you for an amazing podcast today. uh Ladies, gentlemen, children, have the most amazing week. Get yourself up to date, compliant, know what you're doing, be safe, future produce for yourself, and have the most amazing week. Take care, everyone. Bye.