Women in Surveying: On Site Life with Sophie Perkins

In this week’s episode of The Girls and Property Podcast, we’re diving into something totally new—surveying! And I’ve got just the woman to guide us through it.

I’m joined by the brilliant Sophie Perkins, a seasoned surveyor who’s making serious waves for women in construction. Sophie brings a straight-talking, fresh perspective on what it’s really like to work in an industry that’s still very much male-dominated—and trust me, some of the stories she shares will stop you in your tracks. It’s clear the sector’s due a serious shake-up.

We cover the different types of surveying (yes, there’s more than one!) and why it’s so important for us as investors to understand the difference. We also get into the barriers women still face, and how to build real, lasting credibility in a space that wasn’t exactly designed with us in mind. Sophie opens up about her journey, the challenges she's tackled, and what keeps her fired up every single day.

One of my favourite parts? Hearing all about Sophie’s brand-new footwear collection, Sophie’s Choice—proper PPE designed specifically for women in construction. Finally, work boots that fit properly, look the part and do the job. Built by a woman who genuinely understands what women on-site need.

It’s a great conversation, full of insight, honesty, and inspiration. 

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls and Property Podcast. So today I am super, super excited. We have actually not had this topic on the Girls and Property Podcast before and I'm introducing a brand new guest today as well, which is always my favorite thing to do. um You've probably seen this specific person around. is absolutely everything that I think is what we need to represent within the um the females within the property industry in terms of being girly, glamorous, like having it all, but then also being credible with actually what they do in a male dominated industry. And that's something I'm really, really excited to talk to you about. And also to be around the conversation if you wanted to tune in today all around surveying and the different sort of paradigms that exist within surveying and understanding it in a greater depth and detail. So today I would love to introduce Sophie Perkins. Hey Sophie! Hi everyone, thank you so much for having me today. I'm super excited about having you on. I've been trying to like track you down for the longest time to be like Sophie, you have to come on this podcast. And em it was actually Lexi, wasn't it? Lexi said to both me and you, they're like, guys, you need to get this podcast going. So shout out to Lexi for making this happen. out to Lexi. I was saying before we started recording that she just brings out the sparkle in anyone that she meets. She's absolutely amazing. And yeah, I'm so glad we've got this mutual connection because I love what you guys do at Girls and Property. I think it's amazing. And thanks to Lexi, I've come across you. well, today is going to be all about sort of bringing out that sparkle in what could be seen as quite maybe not the most glamorous of conversations around surveying and construction, but we're going to make it super exciting and super sort of sparkly today, as it were. So Sophie, help me out. Can you please first sort of set the scene for us? Can you introduce yourself, tell the listeners a little bit about you, your story, how you even got into what it is that you do now? the journey that you've been on and maybe something interesting about you that the listeners wouldn't already know. Okay, right. That's a lot to unpack there. So my name is Sophie Perkins and I am a Chartered Building Surveyor and a Chartered Building Engineer. I am an Associate Building Surveyor at Atkins Realis. We're a global design, engineering and project management consultancy. And we're absolutely huge. I've been there for nine years, but my experience is 17 years in the industry. So a really long time. And that takes me back to how I got into it. So When I was little, I just loved building dens, absolutely loved it. uh Anywhere in the garden, within trees, I loved making my own little spaces. And I think that's the early days of me understanding about maybe wanting to do something to do with building. I also, even now as an adult and a child, if I went into an amazing space, amazing building, I got an amazing feeling inside me. I loved architecture. I loved historic buildings. I loved ultra modern buildings. I just thought it was incredible. And I wanted to in some way be involved in the oldest industry in the world, construction and building. All the way back to the pyramids. We've been building forever and we'll always build. So I knew I wouldn't be out of a job. But then it came to... school. I did really well at school. And it was the kind of right, your A levels, get a degree, off you go. And it just didn't suit me. I knew I wanted to work, but I also wanted to be academic. I did want to achieve qualifications and carry on my learning journey, but I wanted to do that as work, working as well. So I did my A levels anyway, but then I applied for apprenticeships. And back then, apprenticeships were really just for non-technical roles, whereas now it's actually more common to talk about apprenticeships in technical roles as well. So it was really hard to find anything. So I applied for an assistant site manager. I applied for uh building control, which I'll tell you little bit more about in a moment. just any, there was quite a few assistant site manager jobs, QS, quantity surveying jobs, QS. em And basically all of the non-local authority jobs, they were just like, no, you're a girl, you've got no construction experience. No. But the weird thing was for me, I was like, well, how am I supposed to have any experience? Because it's an apprenticeship and unless kind of like you're a boy or your dad's got a company or whatever, there was kind of like no fit in the door. But the local authority near me was Goster City Council. And they did their first and last ever building control apprenticeship. So it was just right place, right time. And they always do apprenticeships there. did IT and business support, but they'd never done a building control one, but they wanted to take someone on. So I applied for the job and I just gave everything in my interview. And they were like, they even said, which now seems a bit inappropriate, but they did say, look. how do we know you'll survive? Because, you know, we, this is, there's all men, and the course is gonna be all men, unless like a female also goes on the course. um I was obviously quite girly as well, and I love being that. you can be whoever you want to be in the industry, I'd like to say. uh I happen to be someone who is really girly, and I can now show up as myself, but I didn't feel like I could back then, if I'm honest. Anyway. m I did a Saturday job at Butchers. There is a point to this story. And that was like a kind of a hard work in male kind of environment. And I used the example of working there and doing the Christmas turkey run and just the chaos that came with it and that I'm not afraid of hard work and uh a non-female type environment. And they gave me the job. They took a chance on me and I've never looked back. And building control. So, Everyone knows about planning. So you need a planning application when you want to build and they look at the environmental and aesthetic side of any building work that you want to do. Once you get planning permission, building control is the side of the work where we look at the statutory side. So we look at all the different elements of the work that you do. We do a plan vetting stage where we review the design to ensure it complies with the building regulations, whether that's structure, whether that's drainage. um your insulation, your thermal values, all of the whole compass. We look at it and then we go and inspect the various statutory inspections on site. So I would be the person who come and look at your foundations, the roof, the drainage, um whatever it is you're having done. It could be that you're having a knock through for a kitchen and you're putting a new steel joystick in, or it could be that you are building a new shopping center, whatever it is. that came under building control. So anyway, I had a really good experience because for me, I got to see eight different sites a day, four different designs a day. I learned really fast and it was a great way for a young person to enter the world of property, building and engineering. So I did a two-year course, an ONC in construction in the built environment. And then I went on to do a HNC, a higher national certificate. in construction and the built environment. During that time, I was the only girl, there was a couple of girls who would come and go, but also it was in a new construction wing of Gloucestershire College, was newly built and it was two stories high and they decided not to put any female toilets in there because they didn't think that there would be any women that would go, which I just think is absolutely horrendous. So that was kind of the beginning of passionate Sophie trying to reform. the industry to be more inclusive. Today, I try and cover all types of inclusivity, but back then it was very much about women for me, because that's, that was my minority. So yeah, I did building control for four years. And then I learned so much about the industry, I found out what a building surveyor was, I was like, that's what I want to be. That's what I want to do. How am going to get there? And ideally, I needed to do a building surveying degree. You don't have to, but it's the most efficient way of becoming a chartered surveyor. So I moved across within the local authority to um the social housing arm and I did that for five years as a building surveyor. I think my job title was slightly different, I think it was contracts manager, but essentially I was doing building surveying type work and in that time I then did my building surveying degree at UWE. I begged the director there to cover my fees because it was really expensive. Got my degree. And then there wasn't uh any progression. So at that point, I thought, right, I've got my degree, I want to become chartered. I'm in an environment where no one is chartered. So client side, typically, it's not as expected to be a chartered surveyor. The degree is enough or the HNC as well is perfectly good for a social housing type surveyor role. So unfortunately, I had to leave because I really did love it there, but I did have to leave to keep pursuing my dreams. And then I went to a small building surveying consultancy for not very long. It didn't suit me at all. And I had to get out of that job. The work wasn't what I was passionate about and the environment was not suited to me. It was run by men again. And I could see that all of the deals that they were having were because of their own boys club contacts. And I just knew that wouldn't work for me. So I got out of it and I had an awkward time where I thought, this, do I even want to be a building surveyor? Like what's going on? And an amazing woman called Jo came along and she just turned everything around for me. She was like, you're just at the wrong place. You've come from local authority to a small consultancy. You need to go to a big consultancy where you've got public sector clients. You're used to public sector. I took six months off. I got headhunted for Atkins, now Atkins Realis, and I've been there for nine years. So I started as a building surveyor, got chartered, worked my way all the way up to associate, and I absolutely love it. I've traveled the world. I've worked on so many amazing projects. Obviously I got chartered, which is such a highlight in my career and my life. And now I'm making new goals and new dreams to keep that. Fire burning. I'm only halfway through my career, if you consider that we're working till we're 70. So yeah, I'm just excited and loving life. Finally, you said about something the listeners might not know about me. There's two things. One is, I haven't talked about it yet, but I'm really passionate about physical factors in the industry for women. I've talked about the building and not having female toilets. Another one is PPE, personal protective equipment, and just, oh my gosh, my first day. When they tried to get me kit was just an absolute fail. There was nothing for me and it made me feel really unwelcome. So I have developed a collection of safety footwear for women called the Sophie collection with Ambler's safety. I'm sure we'll talk about it a bit more in a minute. And the other thing is that I'm a mother of three. I have three children. One is four, three and one. So they're very young. And I know this is a podcast for everyone, but it's got a big female audience. And I just want to celebrate that you can be ambitious and a career woman and be a family person as well and have children. So, yeah, that's me in a nutshell. I don't know how long I just waffled on then for, but yeah, a bit of information. No, I love it. What an intro my goodness. Okay, so follow my lead here Sophie So I want to unpack some of what you've just said before we move on So the very first thing I've been writing as you've been speaking So I want to go back to what you said because I don't want to gloss over this the first time you ever went for this interview with The company and you said it yourself if you actually look back and reflect it was actually very inappropriate where they actually ask you the question of, how do you think you're gonna survive? Like, what a question to ask somebody. And it's like, why wouldn't I survive? Because they're men and I'm a woman. Like, how do you feel about that question now if you were to be asked it again? Yeah, it's like now I look back, that was really inappropriate and also, like I know it came from a good place, but a lot of, eh I'm trying to think of the word, discrimination comes from, often people don't mean to, but they are discriminating against you. uh Another example is often on site at the beginning, so it just made me cringe where it'd like, stop men, there's a lady on site, no swearing. uh And I'm like, that just makes me feel unwelcome, different, like I don't fit in here and I'm not welcome. And now I'm older and I've got my qualifications. think, yeah, I know what I'm doing and I've got this. But back then when you're your early days, you've got nothing to fall back on, nothing to prove that you are good at what you do. And I could have easily turned around and walked straight back out the door. And the retention of women in construction in general em is really bad. So. A lot of the work is trying to get women into these careers and then it's getting women to stay in them as well is such a challenge. But yeah, at the interview, was, think they would just, I think I could tell they really wanted to recruit me, but they were like, this is just not what we were expecting to come through the door. I don't look like somebody who works in construction. And I'm hoping that's changing because that was 17 years ago now. So that was in 2008. eh And so much has changed. I've got so many examples of what life was like then and what life's like now. But there's a long way to go. There is still. Yeah, definitely. And you know, we've got so many, which I'm so proud of, so many women within the girls and property community that are all in construction, all of them, and they are the most beautiful girls, both inside and out. They do an incredible job. They are so intelligent. Like they are so intelligent with what they know within the construction world. And I love the representation of showing. It reminds me so much in the best way of like Legally Blonde, where she like, like, yeah, like Elle just goes and absolutely smashes it, you know, showing that she can become this lawyer and I see it in the construction industry where you know literally it's incredible. So I was really that was one point I really wanted to touch on there because I think what a question to ask a young female is well how do you think you're going to survive and I can imagine you must have your personality must be so like grown and you must have developed so much as a person from going on site and having that to going actually I'm not going to be turned away by this. dreams is what I want to do I'm not going to be made to feel like the outcasts and I think kudos to you Sophie like that's a really powerful move and I think a great representation the other thing that you touched on was because I'm really I really want to know what you did in this regard like there were no female toilets so what did you do there was, so firstly, how scary is it to even just start studying anywhere new? You've left like, it's a new environment. I didn't know anyone. Often when you do go on to A-levels university, whatever it is, you know one person. I didn't know anyone. I was petrified. But yeah, then there wasn't any female toilets. So what there was, was there was male toilets and a disabled toilet on each floor. So I had to go in the disabled toilet. But as a girl, like, I love privacy and I don't know, like, I'm more confident now. Like I've had three children, like, my dignity is gone. But, you know, it was not nice. And they had like this little grill on the door and the lads used to like lift the louvers like, whee, whatever. And oh my gosh, like, it was just, I can't explain it because it was awful. But then it was just banter, whatever. So. I, in terms of my college friends, we got on really well and they did take me under their wing. and it, cause it was a construction course, not building surveying. had quantity surveyors, contractors, site managers, civil engineers. had, and most of them were on site all day. So the banter was high and everyone got picked on, but that was for me, it was the, like the toilet and that. So I. basically did a lot of work around it. I don't know how, because it was so long ago, I can't remember the exact how it happened. But I put myself forward as like the class representative, because I'm like, I'm a girl, we're people pleasers, right? It just came naturally to me to do it. And in the end, were like really apologetic. And they made the first floor for girls and then disabled, and then the second floor for boys and then disabled. So they basically alternated each floor, they changed the picture on the door. So there was like urinals, but they made it. they put like females. So then I only had to go down to the first floor to then go to a toilet facility. And that was just amazing. But it still meant that I would took ages to go to the toilet. So I was like, I was on the second floor. I run away down the corridor down and then down to the first floor. And I don't think that happened for at least a year. Like it was it was a while. So yeah, was yeah, a big it's just it seems really like unusual, like when I say it, people are like, what? But that was the reality. And that was not an old building. That was a newly built construction and technology wing. So yeah. Yeah. I think these conversations are what make this podcast so important because I speak to a lot of people on a daily basis. um And I'll have some guys that come up to me and they say, Athena, I don't really see this like male female divide within the property industry. I don't see it. I don't know what you're talking about. They say to me, and to be fair, I understand what they're saying when they say, sometimes I'll go to networking events. There are more females in the room than males. Like it's all changing. It's really equal. these are the conversations that I actually want to have. The real conversations where things that you have been through are not to be overshadowed, are not to just move on from. They're important conversations to have because they're part of your story Sophie. Like it's real and I can't even imagine you taking the risk and taking the guts to actually go and do something new. And like you said, it's terrifying to go anywhere where you don't know anyone, but then to be like felt like an outcast or to feel. just like, oh, okay, now I've got to do this. It's very odd. And so I love the fact you've just shared that story with us because it fuels me. It fires me up to go, no, these are the stories that matter. This is the story to tell. Do you know what I mean? So I thank you for sharing that. And my last question for you before we then move on with the podcast and to the... bits is you mentioned this person, I think it's important to have this conversation, you mentioned this woman called Jo, who you said actually was the person who then changed your life and then took you on. Because I think that there are people in life, there are, there is that person, whether it's a school teacher, a family member, um hopefully, maybe me one day for some with girls and property, like there's a person, there's a person that can change your life. So who is Jo? Tell me about Jo. I don't know if she'll mind me embarrassing her, that's why I just said Jo, because I haven't embarrassed her before. She was a really senior charter building surveyor and I met her because when I was at this small consultancy for a very short amount of time, they were very supportive of networking events. So there was a lot of positives from there as well. And I decided, right, I'm going to the Women in Property event because there was a huge network within Bristol. So Bristol was where I... was working and I didn't have membership because it's coming from local authority now just remembering you didn't have a budget to go to these things but I wanted to go and then I think they they asked me to do a speech for their International Women's Day event about the Sophie collection. Back then it was the Sophie shoe there was just one shoe and now it's obviously developed and so anyway I went there and I just I literally added everyone on LinkedIn. I just like lapped up as much as I could to try and build my network. And that's where I met Jo. And I was like, you're a builder's Wow. And she was, I don't know, I think she's where I am now, an associate at the time. She's now a director. And I just like clung on. then I met her and it was the RACS did visible women lunches and they were free because it was organized by the RACS. I was like, great, I can go to that. I couldn't have done that before because I didn't have the budget. And that was held at a really fancy legal offices where they had construction lawyers there. And I was like, this is me. This is amazing. And all the women were like glamorous. And I have to highlight, you don't have to be glamorous to work in construction. But for me, I was like, wow, I can be me and be in construction. It was like a bit of a like moment where I was like the emancipation of Sophie where I was like, I can be me. And she was at that lunch and she found out. that I what I had done. And then that's kind of like a moment where she said to me, let's meet up and I didn't understand it was like the first time I was like, realizing that people are willing to help you for no return. And now that seems normal to me. So clearly with like the girls and property network, that's exactly what you guys are doing. And in the women in property network that I was part of, I realized that that's what they're doing. So later on, I then got became a member, I was on the committee and I was like, Every time I see a woman now, I do it as much as I can. So I've got lots of people who I mentor, et cetera. But at that time, it just seems so unusual that someone would want to help me, but they don't want anything back from me. I was like, this is amazing. Anyway, she met me and I honestly could have left the industry because I think I thought it's me, but actually it was just not the right company. That was it. And, and it's that really difficult time of the chartership and anyone who's going through chartership or whatever. institution. It's really hard. And I think I could see the mountain I had to climb ahead and just didn't know if I believed in myself. And obviously, I was fine. I did it. It was amazing. like, it's easy to say now. But back then, I just thought, so yeah, that was Jo. And yeah, if she I'll check with her. But if she doesn't mind, I'll a reference her in the show notes later. can put a little note. Yeah. And that was just the beginning of many women who were selfless and helpful and Likewise, I try and return that favour to the next lady who needs help. generations pass on to the generations absolutely what a tribe I love that story and that's such again that's such an important story to share where you're right there is there comes a certain element when you believe in yourself but it takes that other person to believe in you to give you that confidence to go actually I can do this it's not me I can move forward and that's that's I think when women come together that's our superpower because I think that we if we all stick together and we all push forward we're unstoppable I really believe I love, yeah. Yeah. so Sophie we're gonna come on to Sophie's collection and we're gonna talk about that in surveying but first before we do that I'd love to talk about what you're actually celebrating at the moment so what are you celebrating? Well, I'm celebrating. my third child, Oscar, he is now one, so I've returned to work. And it's been brilliant. I've come back and I've been welcomed as a really respected member of the team and celebrated. And they've actually promoted me to associates. So I was principal surveyor and now associate only just last week. So I'm celebrating that today. I'm so grateful to the company for... championing me, regardless of if I've had children. I know there's a stigma against it, like, is my career over now? But they've been amazing and they've seen my strengths and it's helped me believe in myself. And so, yeah, I'm celebrating that and I'm just so happy, even just to be surviving being back after having a baby is hard. yeah, both returning to work and getting promoted is my celebration. Wow, what an amazing celebration. That is fabulous. And what a company to work for as well that recognizes that. You know, I'm sure you've seen and I've seen certainly so many stories where women have gone on maternity leave and actually when they come back, their job has actually already been replaced or their situations, they've actually had to go to like courts and things like that. So the fact that you came back to work was celebrated and promoted is a huge celebration. So yes, changing the industry one bit at a time. I love that. And I just want to celebrate this podcast actually like this podcast is so beautiful in the way that I love having these connections and conversations with people like you and with other women and men as well like there's so many stories to tell and I feel like like this is the platform that people have the voice that they can tell their authentic true story. There is no sort of like hidden agenda and there's no like, here are my set questions and we're going to stick to these questions. It's like, well, no, I, always say to, to, I've said it to you and I've said it to every single other person. I'm like, I'll press record and follow my lead. That's what I always say because I'm like, just let it flow. Just like make it as if we were having a cup of tea and somebody was a fire on the wall listening. Let's actually really get to the depths of the conversation and give a bit of value, but have fun along the way. So I'm just going to celebrate the podcast today because I, love it. and I love everything about it and I can't wait to continue to do it as long as people want it. yeah. Cheers. Absolutely. But I'll come and see something stronger for later. oh So Sophie, talk to me about then this notion of surveying. So I'll be really honest with you. I don't know very much. I'll hold my hands up and say, I need to learn. And hopefully the listeners really feel like that as well. They're like, if you know, don't know either. So let's start with the basics and then we can kind of move on so that we move in a linear manner. So if we're thinking about surveying, you know, I think sometimes I don't know how you feel about this. I feel like a lot of people can sometimes classify lots of different things into surveying, but actually what is surveying? Like how would you use terminology for it? really hard because, for example, in America, they don't have a building surveyor role. There are three different jobs, which class is a surveyor? So I think that gives you an insight into how much we do in building surveying. There are 22 different pathways to becoming a chartered building surveyor. And when someone says, I'm a chartered surveyor, I'm a surveyor. It could mean many different things. It could mean that they're a valuation surveyor. It could mean they're a quantity surveyor, a project manager. We also have, I mean, geomatics surveyor, have you ever heard of that? uh Land surveyor. So that's just like everything about land. A building surveyor within that spectrum is the OG of surveying. It's harder to get chartered because you have to do a bit of everything in order to show your competence. So if I just kind of give you an insight into my job, we do, we deal with land property, the built environment. I personally do, I work for a consultancy where we mostly do commercial work. So when I say commercial, we work in non domestic buildings, unless they're big scales, we do big stuff. So unless it's like a hall of halls of residence. I know you do HMOs, Athena. I do do HMOs if they're for like a big client, so they have a number of them, then we would work on a HMO, but we wouldn't typically do like a one-off um SME type client. But that's just me. So as a surveyor, I need to know about building pathology. I need to be able to understand all of the defects within your building. I sometimes If I have a child ask me what I do, I tell them I'm a building doctor. So I am looking for all the symptoms of an illness in that building, whether it be damp, whether it be a structural issue. It could be all sorts and it's really interesting. I find it so interesting. All of the building pathology type stuff. We're also there at the transactional side of property. So when you want to buy a property, a surveyor can do the survey for you. There three types of survey. There's quite a basic valuation survey. um If you have one of them, don't expect the defects to be highlighted. I know I had a valuation on my house from our mortgage lenders and the car drove outside and drove off again. Yep, it's together, it's in place and Zoopla says this. It was very basic. And then you've got your home buyers, which is um quite a layman's terms survey, which is like a traffic light report. So it's quite nice. green, amber, red, but it doesn't go into too much detail. It's a non-intrusive survey. So there could be hidden issues within the property that you don't know about. And then you have a full building survey, sometimes an structural, which is quite good. You can have the two together. uh And that gives you, I would recommend that on any, for anyone who says to me, Sophie, I need a surveyor. I would always recommend a full. detailed building survey, I would never suggest you have anything less. If anything, it's an insurance policy because if there's any issues with the house, you've got something to come back on. I shouldn't really highlight that because that's not great for me as a surveyor. if you are having a survey, you simply need to go onto the RICS website. There's a find a surveyor link and you can put in your postcode and it'll come up with all of the chartered surveyors and firms in your area. So that's what I always do. I don't tend to recommend my mate or anything. I also, as with any professional, you cannot do advice for friends and family, which is quite frustrating sometimes when I can see that they need a survey, but we're unable and uninsured to survey a friend's house unless it's a full contract and you're covered. So yeah, that is a nightmare for me. probably you working in property, everyone's like, can you have a look at this? Can you have a look at that? Oh, I want to do this. I want to knock through. it's hard. So I just direct them to our RACS website, find a surveyor. get your proper chartered surveyor m or associate RICS. That's another level. Get your survey done. So that is one big part of surveying. Building control is a pathway. So I was talking about building control earlier, which is the statutory side. So could be a chartered building control surveyor, for example. But back to being a building surveyor and the transactional side of property, if you are moving out of a property and it's a commercial one, for example, there is, you have a dilapidation survey. uh I don't know if you've covered that before. So, dilapidations is for commercial leases. I have done them. Don't enjoy it. I've done it years ago. It's not really my thing. But essentially, you... All right. It's a bit like a domestic... So, say you've got a tenant and they move out and they've paid you a deposit and then you survey the house yourself, probably, to decide whether or not the house was in the same condition as it was when you... let it out and if it's not, you take some of the deposit. It's like that but on a very detailed and rigorous version of it. there is legislation and um there is guidance notes that you have to follow m and you have to be really honest. um So say for example, you have a shop and you say to me, Sophie, I want you to do a dilapidations survey because my tenant is moving out, but you tell me that you want to turn that shop into a dog groomers and I know you're going to rip out the hole inside and redecorate, then I cannot claim to the tenant for works to make it back to how it was if you know you're not going to be doing that again. yeah, I probably got, if there's any surveyors listening, they're like, has she explained dilapidations in the best way? But in simple terms, you're essentially putting together a claim for restoring the property to how it was before. And they can be really, really large claims uh depending on how much you've adapted that building and if you've looked after it or if you haven't. that's dilapidations. We do condition surveys. You can have a schedule of conditions. So that's if you're moving into a property and you want a schedule of condition to have a formal document to review the condition of that property at the beginning. That's always a good idea to do that. And then with a dilapidation, you would review that schedule of condition against the condition of the building moving out. But I also do condition surveys, something else. So let's say you're a fire station, you're a fire station client, you've got 10 in the area, and you want me to look at the buildings and what needs doing and how urgently they need doing, then we would look at all of your estates. and we would look at like, say for example, the roofs, the roof need replacing in one year, five years, 10 years, whatever it is, will cost it up a few as well. And then hopefully that customer will be happy with us and they'll say, okay, can you put together a program of works, put together the design? And that takes me on to design. So that's probably about 70 % of the work I do is taking a client all the way from Reba stage one to Reba stage seven. What's Reba stages? So the Reba plan of works, the Royal Institution of British Architects plan of works is the cycle in which in the UK we follow for construction works. So Reba stage zero is strategic definitions. That's just the defining of the works. When you get to about Reba stage four, it's like a detailed design that would be essentially like a tender pack. So a pack that contractors would tender on. And then Reba stage five onwards is the build stage. I will be there from beginning to end and that's what gets my heart beating. I really enjoy that. I enjoy meeting someone, whatever it is that they need. Do they need a data center? Do they need a new school? Do they need an extension? Do they need HMOs? I've done laboratories, I've done ah everything. so I become an expert in different industries, retail, whatever it is. That customer comes to me and I see them from the beginning to the end. And that's why I love being a building surveyor. Because if you're say an architect, You might only be there at the beginning up to planning. If you're say a contractor, you're only going to be there to build it, but you haven't been there at the beginning where you're dreaming about what you want to build and then developing that design. But as a building surveyor, I get to be there from beginning to end. And when I mean everything, we do everything we do the tender review and we do the contract administration. So the listeners are probably familiar with the JCT contracts for building or the NEC contract as well is. really popular. I'm an expert in those contracts as a building surveyor, you have to know it to get charted. And then I administer that contract throughout the building program, manage the valuation, so the payments for the contractors. It's so much fun. And all the way to the end of that, where we hand the building back. Building surveyors can also be facilities managers, so you can then look after the building throughout its lifecycle. You can literally do everything as a building surveyor. Some people say a jack-of-all-trades master of none, but we are masters of many elements of it. And just to conclude there, in terms of what I do, and going back to being a building surveyor, I work in a multidisciplinary environment. So I don't work for a firm who are all building surveyors. We're just one discipline as part of many. And that's why I really like Atkins Realis, because we have architects, structural engineers, civil engineers. mechanical, electrical engineers, acousticians, drainage engineers, em literally ecologists, like everything, we have them all there. And I just love it. I've got my big team and they all are part of that design, whether it's all the way up to planning and then taking it through to construction. It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. And like I said, we could do it for a range of industries. So you learn so much and I'm never bored. It's like a job within a job every time you finish a contract. You start with a new client and a new contract and it is just incredible. Do you know what I'm learning from what you've just said? Because there was so, I mean, first of all, Sophie, mean, first of all, first of all, what I love about what I've just seen from you is your passion for it. You know, as you were speaking, you were reading it off and you could see it in your eyes. You were just like, I love it. I love what I do. I love how I help people. I love the information and you're clearly exceptional at what you do, clearly. And so I just love the expertise and I love the... the drive that you have behind it and you've done this for so long now and so First of all, I love that you love what you do. Listeners, if you're a bit like me and you're like, I understood and listened to about half of what Sophie just said, but at the same time, was also like half of it just went completely over your head, then I'll say this to you. This would be my advice to you as a listener, because I've got a lot of new listeners as well, Sophie. My advice to you as a new listener would be, this is why you hire an expert like Sophie, right? So if we think about this, in property, I feel like too many people try to understand and try to feel like they need to know everything. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes personally I don't know if you disagree with this But I feel like if you try to learn everything yourself and you try to understand everything yourself That's actually where you fall down because I feel like it's overwhelming It's too much to take in and you end up standing still the best advice I can give you is to get different people and different power teams to come in and who know your who who know their strengths as it were so for example Sophie like if I look at my strengths and things surveying is not one of them Like I'm not that technical, but I would a hundred percent be like, Sophie, I need you in power team. Let's go. So my strength is bringing in the right people at the right time to know what their skill is. So my advice to anyone listening is to say, you don't need to understand every single detail of what Sophie just said. You just need to know that Sophie is there as an expert to bring as a member of your power team who will ask you the questions to then get you the project that you actually want to get. And as she said, she is there from the beginning to the end. taking you the whole way through the process and clearly will be very passionate about the project as well in such a beautiful way. I loved that and I loved as you were speaking. One of my questions to you Sophie is you speak about being a surveyor or a chartered surveyor and I've seen this quite a lot like someone say they're a chartered surveyor. What is the main difference in a nutshell? There's a really big difference and this applies to what you just said about getting an expert. So, yeah, well, a chartered surveyor. the RACS is the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. I'd encourage you after this episode just to check out their website, either because you want to understand the different careers, because many people enter this industry halfway through their career or much later in life, half of my team are people who have gone into this later in life. So perhaps this is something that's ignited interest in you. So the RACS website also covers lots and lots of technical information. it would be worth, depending on what works you're doing to a property, uh kind of learning a bit more about it. Yeah, I would say definitely get an expert on things. A chartered surveyor, they become chartered. So you've had to have done the APC. That's the assessment of professional competence. It's, I'm going to swear, it's bloody hard. It's really, really hard. But that's why I'm competent at what I do now. To get chartered, there are, in the modern world, there are different ways that you can do that. You can do an experienced route where you haven't done the degree. there are people who are building surveyors who are not chartered. and they're getting that experience, you don't have to be chartered. But as a consultant, it's expected that that is what you do. If you work client side as a building surveyor, you don't necessarily need to be chartered. I'm trying to give an example of a client side, you could be McDonald's estates manager. McDonald's has an estates manager, universities have estates. You don't have to be, a lot of people are still. but you don't have to be and they recruit consultants to support them on work. So often when I talk about these clients, I'm working with an estate manager who may or may not be chartered. They may or may not be a building surveyor, they may be a project manager, they may be, or a different type of chartered surveyor and they don't have expertise in the kind of work that I would be helping them with. em I'm just thinking social housing, you'll get building surveyors. it just wasn't needed where I worked. why would you? But I think I just really wanted to become chartered. So as I said, you have to do the APC. It's a minimum of two years post degree, or there are alternative routes, like I said, that you can do, you can go into. I had a friend who was from New Zealand, a very competent surveyor, but her degree was not applicable to the RACS's list of degrees that you could do. So she then had to do a preliminary review. So it's like a pre-chartership and then the chartership. So there are many ways in, but in short, it's you cover a range of competencies, which you can see on the RACS website. It's a good way of understanding what a building sphere does because there's, you know, there's contracts, there's building pathology, there's works, progress and quality management, law, legal, health and safety. I mean, there's just an insane amount of health and safety. That is a service we provide for clients is just managing the construction design and management regulations 2015. Every building site falls under that legislation. So if you don't know about it, hire us and build and survey and we can help you with that. But yeah, so to get chartered, there is a process. So a chartered surveyor is a protected name. You cannot call yourself it unless you are chartered. I feel sorry for engineers because it's not a protected name. So you'd have to call yourself like a chartered engineer or whatever. So for example, you can have a washing machine engineer, you could have a BT engineer, engineer's engineer. But in other countries, the word engineer is a protected name and you can only use it if you're chartered. So I thought that's quite interesting, because we don't have as many women choose engineering in the UK as we do in our European partners, m countries, sorry, our European friends. countries because it's a protected name so people want it. Architect is a protected name. You cannot be called an architect unless you have become chartered. You can call yourself an architectural designer or architectural technologist. They're like different names. So just going back to the chartered surveyor, it's a bit like that. It's like it's a protected name that, oh yeah, and it's there's my certificate there. I was very proud to put it on the wall. But yeah, it's, it's you can, and anyone who's like intimidated by it. you can do it. You know, you just, I worked hard and I did it. There's nothing special about me. I just was passionate and worked hard. And anyone who's like, whatever that qualification they were debating on doing or not, I would say, just go for it. You can do it. You really can. And I needed those voices when I was like, maybe I'll just not get chartered, because I didn't have to, but I would never become an associate without it. I'd, I've been stuck where I was. Yeah. m believe in you, absolutely. So let's just move on to Sophie's collection then, because I think Sophie's collection is so incredibly important in terms of what you've created for the PPE gear. So tell me about Sophie's collection then. Okay, so back to first day working in building control, I was 18. And I back then, you know, now we just buy everything online typically. But then you went to a PPE store, and you went in and they kit you out. And I needed everything because I was going to be on quite dangerous and muddy and horrible building sites where you need to be really get kitted up to be safe. So I needed the full PPE and they were just like, we've just got nothing for you. The only things that they had were unisex, so they were men's. um And out of all of it, the biggest thing that made me feel uncomfortable was the footwear, because I know whatever job I go to, whether I'm going to a domestic extension or a big building site where they're digging foundations, I knew I'd need footwear, safety footwear. And that was the area that I felt really like shocked about and I'm glad in a way that I had a hard time at the beginning because it made me who I am today. I would never have developed a collection if I didn't have an issue with it. fast forward a few years, so I had developed like a network and I'd got like Twitter at the time which was seemed to be quite big for professional conversations and I just did everything I could to promote that we need PPE for women, we need footwear, safety footwear for women. And I also managed to get a column in the local paper. And turns out that there's a lack of funding for local newspapers and journalists and for someone to write something for free, they're like, go on then. So I used to have, I think I can't remember what it's called. It's like Sophie's column. don't know what it's called now. And they used to let me write a column every week. It was hard work, actually, but I was like, this is great exposure. Anyway, a company called Ambulance Safety, who is a European safety footwear leading brand. And one of their marketing executives came across me, Haley, and should I give a big up, Haley Padgett. uh And she contacted her directors and was like, I think we've got an opportunity here. And prior to that, all of the companies were like, we want to make money, no women, no shoes. Whereas I was thinking, well, what about if we make the shoes and then the women will come because they'll feel welcome because I didn't feel welcome. But anyway. I didn't make much progress at the beginning and I love my job as you can tell. So I didn't want to be a shoe designer. I want to be a building surveyor. I just needed to do that on the side. And yeah, Ambulous Safety gave me a chance. We worked together. We developed the Sophie shoe, which is here. This was the first, sorry, it's a bit, because these are my actual work ones that I wear. this, imagine a male broke kind of shoe where, so the male... building control surveyors would have like a broke shoe. We did have the rigor boots for dirty sites and that but these were more for like professional out and about all day. You would never not wear a safety shoe at any point in your job. So this was your day to day shoe. Imagine your black trousers at the bottom. They professional, right? So that was the Sophie shoe and that was the first one. It's got a steel sole, it's got a toe cap, it's oil resistant, slip resistant. It's a brilliant flexible shoe but also if something falls on my toe, I'm not going to lose my toes because it's got a toe cap in. That was the first shoe. And very quickly, it became one of their European most bestselling shoes. And that was it. That was, you know, from there on, it was like, right, let's make some more shoes then people want it. And I was like, of course they do. And it wasn't just, you know, when you when I talk about my job and I'm a building spirit, I'm on site, women want safety shoes. People are doing DIY. People are property investors. People are, you don't have to do this job to necessarily need a shoe. Lots of women need safety shoes. Lots of men need safety shoes. We get a lot of women who work em with horses and they don't want their foot stood on and they need like that kind of shoe so that they, um yeah, basically women need it just as much as men. So the story of we're not gonna make it because there's not enough women was definitely not applicable. And then the second shoe was the Lydia. So then I made a boot and it's got the zip. So I find like when it's freezing cold in the winter, I can't undo my laces. And often people are putting on this boot to go on site and then come off site. So again, the Lydia became one of their European bestsellers. And now we've got over 15 shoes in the collection. Every shoe is like so many. I've got a few more with me here. I've got Lexi's favorite. This is the Mimi. Sorry, again, I've not really made this very pretty because this is my actual one. So it's gray, but then on the inside it's got this like blue, like a husky dog. I just thought like little pops of color was really nice, but not too much. And then we've got, I've just been promoting the Eleanor, which I think is like the sports mode shoe. It's just like a little bit sportier. Do you know what I mean? This comes in two colors. I've got the honey as well on the floor. m The Eleanor is named after em a girl who I did college with, sorry, university with Eleanor and she's now an associate director, building surveyor. She's absolutely amazing. So every shoe in the collection is named after a woman who inspires me in the industry. They've all sorts of different jobs, not just building surveying. We've got engineers, surveyors, property developers, and there are so many different boots. So we have... really heavy duty kind of boots that you would need for like rail and tunneling engineering all the way down to if you're a scaffold or a roof you need lightweight, you need to bend down, you need more like a trainer, plumbers. We've got the Pixie which is a, I haven't got it with me right now, but it's like a slip-on trainer, a like a Skechr, but it's got all the safety features and that's named after Pixie, who is a heating engineer, we've just done a photo shoot with her where she's fitting a boiler and I think she's a legend. I work for airports and we have to have metal free. So we've got like composite safety boots with like all of the every feature on it doesn't have any metal. It's actually amazing. It's helped me know about all the different careers that women do because there are so many. But also, yeah, we've got And we need more. We've just released a Wellington and the Wellington is the first in the whole world female safety Wellington until two months ago there was no female safety Wellingtons in the whole world. a safety wellington? is that? well wellington like a little my god I thought you know I'm so sorry my brain is not operational in that moment like a welly basically fairing too many things that you're, yeah, but it's a welly. Yeah, but so we have, you know, like female wellies, right? That's pretty normal. But if you, my God, yeah, hunters are like the crème de la crème. Yeah, they're so beautiful. So if, say tomorrow, Athena, you need a Wellington on site, I'll give you an example, an archeologist, they're in like deep mud all day, uh they need Wellingtons, until two months ago, unless they've bought the shoes, they're probably still to today, they're wearing a man's welly. And can you imagine how uncomfortable that is? Because you're gonna be like, your foot's stuck in the mud and it doesn't fit you, so the women are wearing like so many pairs of socks. You may ask, what's the difference between a men's and a woman's? our feet are different. So, yeah, they're totally different and it's called a last. So every shoe is made on a last and it's until if it's unisex or men's, the last is on a man's foot size five, fit six, seven, eight, whatever the sizing is the same, but it's just a last, whereas a women's last is obviously made for women. So obviously your hunters will be a woman's last hunter. But if you've ever needed a toe cap or a safety wellington, welly, you haven't been able to get one for, unless it says the word unisex, is for men. So you haven't been able to get one for women. Just to, yeah. thank you. I think to myself, first of all, there isn't actually a lot of people doing what you're doing in terms of recognising that women need this. I think that I can just imagine, I'm just trying to picture and I can imagine your story where you wrote this column, you didn't get anything in return for it, but you're like, I know that there's a purpose and I know that my drive behind it. And I think that's something I really want the listeners to think about. Because this podcast is more than just giving the information, Sophie. This podcast is about getting the listeners to really think about what the essence is behind what it is that you're saying. for example, there'll be listeners who listen to this, who at this moment in time are getting into property and then new to property. And I can tell you this because I get DMs from them every single day where they say to me things like, I think I've sent my letters, I've called the agent, I've put the bid in, I'm doing this and I'm not getting anywhere. I'm not getting anywhere and I feel like I'm getting lost and I feel like I'm putting all this money into it. I feel like I'm putting all this effort into it. I've still got my full-time job and I'm not getting anywhere. You are a classic example, a beautiful example Sophie, of somebody who continued continuously to still do it without necessarily seeing the return or seeing the results straight away, but you continued to do it and then you've eventually got the yes. And that's something I want the listeners to really listen to when they hear your story to go, actually I want to like Sophie I want to think well Sophie kept going and so so can I that's what I want people to take away do you know what I mean so It's taking those opportunities. They might not make sense at the time, but there's always something that it leads to. And I think people just think hard work is going to get me somewhere. But unfortunately, only 10 % of the reason you'd be promoted is from your work. The rest is exposure and image. And me, I've progressed quite well. There are people who've got further than me. There are people who haven't got as far as I have. in their surveying journey. But what I've been working on is not just doing a good job, because that doesn't necessarily get you the promotions. It's your image and your exposure. It's going on podcasts, it's writing in the local paper, it's developing a safety collection. I met an amazing lady who has braided hair and the hard hats didn't fit her so she wasn't allowed on site. It's crazy, right? not. And so she then made a hard hat for women. And not just for women, actually, for anyone who has like Afro Caribbean hair, braided hair, head scarves. And like she did that through getting herself out there through contacting companies and getting the exposure of raising the issue. So yeah, all of your listeners, like whatever it is, you can do it and you just Yeah, like take these opportunities, even if it doesn't quite fit in with you. Well, I've just got to make money. I've just got to do this job. just got to know you've got to do all the other things and everything will come. It will just come to you if you do all the other bits as well. Exactly, exactly. And I think that's such an important message. And I love that Sophie's collection is now taking off. The boots are beautiful and the Wellingtons as well. And yeah, I just love it. And I love seeing women like you grow and succeed. you know, I'm sure so I can't imagine your pride when you see somebody tagging you or wearing Sophie's collection and you're like, it, yeah. built that, that's me. And that must give you just such pride to think no other woman is going to be made to feel the way that you were made to feel. And that's huge. I don't think you can get a better honor than that, really. I just love like hearing stories of women who have said on my first day, I felt welcome because I had a shoe for me and it's like, yes, like, because I didn't have that. So I'm just like, that's exactly why we're here. Like, that's why I did it is to make it easier for the next person. And hopefully women feel like they are welcome in the industry and that there is. toilet for them. There is a shoe for them. You know, we talked about the toilets earlier, the physical things like that's what makes you feel welcome. There's a lady called Charity Rose who actually works at my company. And she's done a campaign about having sanitary products in toilets on site. And it sounds silly, but it's made such a big difference to women feeling that they're welcome on site and that they like if they're on their period, that doesn't mean they have to take a day's annual leave, especially if they're on building sites all day. And so she's built that into the CDM regulations that all sites need to have, well, female toilets with sanitary provisions as well. was just like, wow, there's so many examples that have come across of where people have come across an issue and then done something about it. But in hand, it does help with your career anyway. Like that there's wider benefits to helping other people to doing unusual things beyond the day to day of your job. Beautiful. I love that. And that's such a powerful thing. And do know what, Sophie, like I could talk to you for literally hours and we'll just have to get you back on again, because there's so much depth to this as well. Do know what I mean? There are so many people that I know are going to want to get in contact with you, those who are looking to get into construction or surveying, but also those who I think just to really love your story and love you as a person, the person behind the story. So what's the best way would you say for people to get in contact with you? I have a Instagram page called Sophie the Surveyor. uh It was set up very, I didn't really have like a landing page before. So I set up a couple of years ago. You can follow my journey. I'm always posting about all the fun things I'm getting up to, new releases of the shoes. I hear from all sorts of people that come to me on my Sophie the Surveyor Instagram account. I also have LinkedIn. So, Sophie Perkins on LinkedIn. And if you want to email me at sophethesurveyor at gmail.com. um I'd love to hear from people and I hope that I've in some way helped brighten someone's day today and maybe someone wants to become a building surveyor after this podcast because it is a great career and a lot of people don't know about it till... they're already working. And I mean, I'm an example of someone who went across the industry a little bit, so I didn't enter as a building surveyor. You can go across through it. we've just got Warwick, who's a summer placement student who was an estate agent, and he knew he wanted to be a building surveyor really. And he's done his first year of uni, and he's come to us for the summer. And he's just brilliant. And I really, really celebrate mature students. And he brings so much more to the table. than someone who's got no work experience at all. So don't be put off. It's a great career. And just remember that we're going to work to about 70. So you're probably nowhere near the end of your career. You've got plenty of years ahead to take on that new challenge. Love that what a beautiful thing to say. Oh so exciting and you know what so many people are going to get in contact with you Wanting to get into this I've got no doubt like I can just I can just see the DMs coming through I could just see it Um, that's a fabulous and as always guys, you know where to find me I'm Athena Dobson underscore official and also girls and property on Instagram drop into my DMs you you guys know the drill My DMs are always open. I'll always get back to you and then don't forget Of course, we've got the girls and property community. So to any new listeners who don't know about this um Girls and Property community has got over 100 members now. think we're close to 115 members, which is insane. So good. And as part of that, we built it on the Circle platform. So it's not a Facebook group, it's not a WhatsApp group. It's a professional platform and people come in and they introduce themselves. And then there's a section which is like ask the community a question. And the questions that get put in there are absolutely incredible. And what I'm gonna do is I think I'm gonna do some behind the scenes on this because when people DM me asking me about the community and then I explain it to them and I show them, they usually sign up and they're like, I didn't realize it's so amazing. So I think I'm gonna do like a loom, a behind the scenes so that you can all can see it. But the conversations that happen are incredible. And then of course we've got our two calls that happen. each month, the first Tuesday of the month and the third Tuesday. The first Tuesday is usually around something to do with girls and prosperity. So it's around you as a business owner, you as a person, who do you want to be? So we've done things from AI to personal branding to breath work to sleep coaching, everything. And then the third Tuesday is around property specifically. So this might be, for example, um finding private finance, HMOs, surveying, for example, um renter's rights bill. um Deal sourcing, whatever it may be. And then that happens on the third Tuesday. So if you're interested, just DM me the word community. Let's have a chat. And by the time this comes out, I might have built that behind the scenes. um And then just to remind you that on the 12th of September, I am hosting a girls and property workshop. This is for 20 people in total. We've only got a few seats left now, but this is going to be a day of uh you looking at your property business. So I've called it, she means business, a day to shift the line and scale. And it is going to be all about you as a property business owner. So looking at right, where am I am right now? How do I build cashflow? How do I build wealth? How do we bring it together? So let me know just the end of the word workshop if you want to chat about that. And yeah, we've got a few seats left and it'll be hosted 10 to four in Basingstoke at Alderley Wood Manor House. Yeah, but Sophie, I would love to leave you with the last words for the listeners today. Like what parting words of wisdom would you love to leave everybody with? I think it's got to be a quote from Sheryl Sandberg from her Lean In book, which is that your career is not a career ladder, it's a career jungle gym. Don't be afraid to move across, down, left, right, up. Don't expect your career to go in one direction. Mine didn't. And I've definitely received the benefits of taking a risk, taking a pay cut to then go up again, get chartered and be where I am today. I love that. Of course. been great. Thank you, Athena. That's okay. I've loved today, Sophie, and I think that we'll defigate you back on because I think there's so much more in depth that we can go into. But I love the words that you just left everybody with. think sometimes people get caught in this idea of this is who I am. I can't change who I am. But obviously my story is I went from being a premium travel consultant for seven years, then COVID hit and I had to pivot. I use this word pivot all the time. So if you're listening to this thinking I'm doing a career that I don't actually enjoy, give it a go. Speak to Sophie, give it a go. yeah. surveying and why not? We need more powerful, wonderful women in the industry doing it. So go and get Sophie's collection and get into it. um if you need a safety shoe, it's uh anvilessafety.com. But we also sell in a range of retailers. So yeah, you can find us online. Thank you. Sophie, thank you for today and to everybody listening, have the most amazing week. DM me what you're up to, any questions, let me know and hopefully see you all over in the community soon. Have a great week guys, take care. Bye.