The 28-Bed HMO Journey: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly with Sam White

Have you ever imagined taking on a 28-bed HMO? In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast, Athena chats with the inspiring Sam White from Move to Grow.

Sam shares the good, the bad and the ugly of taking on her property journey thus far — from starting out as an accidental landlord to achieving the incredible milestone of completing a 28-bed HMO. She opens up about the challenges she faced, the wins that kept her motivated, and what it truly takes to accomplish something of this scale.

Together, Athena and Sam explore the importance of mentorship, the reality of property management, and the power of surrounding yourself with the right community. This episode is perfect for anyone standing at a crossroads, ready to take on a bigger challenge but held back by a lack of confidence or belief. If that sounds like you, this conversation will give you the inspiration and motivation to take that next step.

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Disclaimer: None of the content in our podcast is intended to constitute legal or financial advice. All interviews and statements are the thoughts & opinions of the hosts and guests themselves and should be taken as such. Any information used from this podcast is done so at your own risk.

Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to another episode of the Girls in Property podcast. So today I have a really, really fantastic episode for you guys because you've probably already read the title and thought to yourself, hold on, stop, what the hell I need to listen to this episode. And do you know what? When I met this person and she told me about her incredible story and then she dropped the bomb with, I'm just completing and has now completed on her 28 bed. That's right, 28 bed HMO. I was like, I need to get to know this person more and to really understand the psyche of why a person would want to take on a 28 bed HMO. So today's episode is going to be amazing. If you tuned into this, you're already in HMOs, wanting to get in HMOs or just wanting to get into property and thinking, wow, how did this person get to where they are today with this huge project? And we're going to delve into it. We're going to talk about the highs, the lows, the reality of it. and what life now looks like for this person now that they have this amazing, incredible asset and what they intend to do with it. So without further ado, I'd love to introduce today Sam White from Move to Grow. Hey Sam. I'm good. I'm excited for today's episode because like so many other people, I remember the first time we met and we sort of were chatting and got into conversation and then you dropped it like it was nothing. You dropped it like, yeah, I'm just about to complete on this. 28th and HMO and I was like sorry stop stop what um you know. Just another transaction. Exactly. Incredible. So let's start at the beginning, Sam, first of all, can you first introduce yourself? Tell us all a little bit about you and how you even got into kind of who you are today, what your background is, um how we then got on to actually acquiring this 28 bed HMO, where it came from, and maybe something interesting about you that the listeners wouldn't necessarily know. Okay, so I'm Sam, I'm from Move to Grow Properties, which I run with my husband. um I've just gone full time in the business, which is really exciting. um But previous to that, I've always worked in charities, so always supporting communities, doing community projects within sport and health and a lot to do with mental health as well. um So that's where my passion lies. m And I got into property when I first bought my very first property. It was an absolute grot hole. There was graffiti everywhere, punch holes everywhere, cigarette smoke that was just rank. And my stepdad moved in with me and we just transformed the place in six months. I became an accidental landlord. I moved in some friends was like, let's try writing an AST and taking deposits and all of that sort of stuff, trying to do it professionally. And then from that point, you know, me and Alan moved in with each other and we came to sell it and made an extortionate profit and was like, hang on a minute, I'd love to do this more. And then went on one of those many two hour workshops that everyone knows and loves, signed myself up to some training and then kind of went from there really. yeah, the story unfolds from there really. Wow. Okay. So, so much to unpack there as well. First of all, like, let's just, let's just go back. So you, so when you're talking about the fact that, you know, you made this extraordinary profit on this property, as it were. So talk to me about what, how that worked. Like, what was the property that you took on? um What was the current value of it? What was like the NGDV? Like, just tell us a little bit more about that. Cause when people say extraordinary profit, I'm like, well, hold on, don't just gloss over that. Let's talk about that. Yeah, no worries. Yeah, sorry. So yeah, so it was just a traditional council house. So you know, it's pretty damn solid. I walked around it and I was walking around it with loads of different developers. And I think it was a repossession house, but the company that had taken it over that was selling it wanted it to go to like a first time buyer. So use that to my advantage essentially. got the property for two twenty, no two thirty. I spent about twenty grand on it and we literally smashed down walls, uh opened up the downstairs and then just weeded everything because this place again was disgusting. We found like twenty knives in the garden as well. because the sun used to live in the garden, so there was lots of human poo everywhere, which was lovely. m But yeah, we essentially turned this place around. I lived in it for about three years. And obviously, as I said, rented it out and then Alan moved in. And then when we came to sell it, I sold it for 375. Wow, that's amazing. So yeah. grand. Wow, that's incredible. I love that. And also in terms of then thinking about, know, you just said that there were knives in the garden. There was like feces in the garden. Like that's crazy. And how was it like living there? How did you feel like living there and experiencing it? What was that like for you? Yeah, so living in a refurb, really interesting. um You've got to be just quite casual with just having to piss in a bucket um and making the use of the elder leisure center showers and stuff like that, paying the receptionist a fiver to let us just use the showers. um And yeah, it was a really interesting time. um And yeah, as I said, my stepdad moved in with me for about three months of that. to just help, because he's a plasterer. So he kind of helped with the building. um And, you know, as I was kind of fathoming my way through this, learned that so many male builders do not talk to women. And we had that with our main builder, just wouldn't look me in the eye, wouldn't talk to me, but he was a bloody good builder. So I kind of had to lean on my stepdad for him to talk to this builder. m And he repetitively kept sort of saying to him, you do know she's paying your wages. Like you do need to kind of talk to her. And yeah, managed to kind of like slowly, slowly break down that barrier with this guy. um But it was those like simple little learnings that kind of propelled me in our property career to find those build the right builders that will talk to me um and those little things really. Yeah, absolutely. Cause if you're going to be taking on a 28 bed HMO, you're going to need them to communicate with you as well. 100%. I mean, see, this is, this is the thing. This is why I love this podcast because you know, you made a statement at the beginning, but rather than just rushing off from that conversation, it's like, well, no, hold on a minute. Let's talk about the knives. Let's talk about the feces. Let's talk about the fact you lived in this property. Let's talk about the fact that the builder wouldn't communicate with you. Like all of those things that happened to you, Sam, like, you know, you went through this for the first time and what's incredible is that that didn't actually put you off. You didn't think actually do you know what property isn't for me? This is actually a really difficult thing to do. I think not enough people actually talk about how difficult it actually is to do. Don't get me wrong, there are huge positives. You clearly stated that you made an exceptional profit out of it. All of the positives, yes absolutely. But it doesn't come easy. It's not an easy thing to do and I think this is what not enough people actually talk about. It's the reality of well hold on I had to As you said in your own words, I had to live in this property. I had to piss in a bucket. I had to go use the leisure facilities. These are all real life things that you've got to really do. So amazing, amazing journey. And I can't, I can't then wait to hear, okay, how does that sound? Then go on to then get this 28 bed HMO. So we're going to come to that in just a second. So before we do, we discussed that. What is it that you would say that you're celebrating at this moment in time, Sam? I mean, probably this big venture. It is our biggest venture to date. It has obviously come with hell of a lot of challenges, things to overcome. And although it's been probably the most stressful couple of months of my life, I think I'm celebrating how we have managed to overcome those stresses. A bit like you just said, like, there was so many challenges that almost broke us, that we were just like, but we can't give up now. Like we're in this now. So many people would have walked away from it and we have got a property mentor as well. And he sort of reiterated, I don't know anyone that would have carried on with this. And we were hell bent on this deal. We knew how much this deal would absolutely change our lives. And I think I've known that from the start with property in general. I can see now how property can transform people's lives. It is not easy by any stretch. But to achieve those, you know, that freedom in life that you want and the benefits that come with that, of course, it's not going to be easy. You know, we can all sit here and buy our lottery tickets, but are we ever going to win? We never know. And I think from that very first property, You know, I've mentioned, I've only ever worked in the charity sector. Those jobs don't necessarily pay very well. And I knew from day one, I can't sit here and moan about it. I am the only person that can change my outcome. And that was a real light switch moment for me. And I was like, well, with that comes risk, the higher risk, the higher rewards. And just kind of went from there really. Yeah, incredible. And I never know if it's a good thing or a bad thing when someone says something like this to you, because I've had this be said to me before when someone says, I don't know anybody else who would have actually have gone through with this. I don't know anybody else who would have put up with this much to get the result. I get that all the time. And I'm like, is that a good thing? Is that not a good thing? So how do you feel when someone says that to you? In some ways you're like, shit, am I doing the right thing? And then on the flip side, you're like, fuck yeah, I'm going for it. Like, just feel in any ways, I feel more empowered that I'm just like, well, I'm doing it. So if I can do it, little old me can do it, then so many other people can do it too. Yeah, absolutely. And just on that then, like, do you feel that the mentor has been the right way to go about it for you in terms of the guidance that you've received and the help that you've received? Do you think that even without the mentor, you would have managed to have taken the same road? Or do you think that the mentor has helped you guide you in certain roads? our mentor literally, I mean he might as well have invested in his property with us. He was on the end of the phone and again as I said there was two months where I texted him at the start being like I am going to be so needy and I just want to prepare you for that and I was super needy because of everything that was going on and the dramas that we had along the way. We were questioning ourselves a hundred percent. And having that mentor by our side was worth its weight in gold. So yeah, we really needed that, really, really needed that. Yeah, and sort of pointed you in the right direction as it were, which is always good. It's always a tough one, isn't it? When you're starting out, because um you want, know, I know so many people who want to invest, have the right passion, have the right sort of like drive, but it's just taking that first step. It's one thing to sort of have the theory and it's one thing to go. I want to do it, but then when it actually comes to actually stepping forward and doing what they say they're going to do, that's where I think differentiates people. There are people who talk about doing it and there are people who actually do it and they're very different types of people. And I think that I think that's the bit you've almost got to... I always say to people like no matter anything new that you do because I do new things every day I actually have this thing where I try and I've been talking to Steve about this I want to try and do at least one thing that scares me every year at least once every year When I say scares me, I mean really scares me, really scares me, gets me out of my comfort zone majorly, you know, like holding a tarantula or something would terrify me, but just things like that. Because I think that that's what really helps you to grow. It helps you to grow because you're like, right, this terrifies me, yet I'm still going to do it. And actually by the time you do it, you're then like, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. And I think just that one step, just that one step forward is, the thing that help you and I think that when there's so much noise out there and so many different people that you can work with and everything I would always say and Sam I'd love to hear your thoughts on this I think when you're looking for a mentor it's just about connecting with a person that you think can truly help you you know whatever their experience is whatever they can do it's about that connection that you then have like you probably said to this guy look I'm gonna be really needy I'm gonna need a lot of your assistance and probably his reaction to what you said probably then made you go with him because he was probably very open and very receptive to it and you connected with him as a person, I think first and foremost. um like our journey with coaches. we've had three, so three coaches along our property journey so far. Sort of four, but we'll go into it. So when we first did our courses that we started off with, we got a three day mentorship. And the coach that we have now was our mentor for our three day mentorship. And he was brilliant. Like we did those courses when we very first started, we thought, you know, they teach you to start by two lets move up to HMOs and then go up the property ladder. So we booked him because we were like, well, we'd like to do HMOs. But they tell you to book it here in advance. So we booked him. And then by the time we actually got to our mentorship, we were like, screw HMOs. We're going to go straight to commercial to residential. And he was like, this is a different mentorship. So yes, we had him from day one. He had me crying on day two because I was like, I can't raise investor finance. And then we just kept in contact with him. You we told him about the positives and the negatives along the way. And if we were really, really desperate, we'd contact him and he'd always be so giving with his time. And then, you know, as we developed along the way, we had uh one mentor. I always try and pick someone, like you said, that I bond with, but also that's almost like five years ahead of me. But our first mentor, she was brilliant. And as soon as I paid for a mentor, I was like, right, I'm gonna keep a mentor for a year and then suck the best out of them and then move on so that you're getting variation, you're getting different values and opinions and worth. Because I think once you've, can easily get quite stale and comfortable and again, pushing yourself out of that comfort zone. So then we moved on to another coach. We did actually stick with her for about two years because we had another big deal which fell through. So we kept her on for that. And then we've just come back to our very original mentor and have been with him for nearly a year now. And yeah, it's been brilliant. And I think having a coach is probably one of the best tools in your locker. Definitely and you know the other thing that you just said that which I really like actually it's something I've been reflecting on recently is I Think if I was gonna give advice to anybody based on what I've seen from others is what you've actually said that you did which I love which is you took on somebody who was about five years ahead of you so I think when you're taking a mentor on if you're gonna be starting out I personally my advice to you would be to take on somebody who's just ahead of you as you said three to five years I would say just ahead of you and then once you've got to where they are basically, then go on to another person who's just ahead of you and just ahead of you. I personally think that if when you start, you immediately go to a mentor who's about 30 years ahead of you or even 20 years ahead of you, I actually think what happens is that isn't the best way to do it because you might be thinking they have all the experience, they have all the knowledge, look where they've been through. But if you think about it logically, they invested in a different time, they started in a different time, in a different market. about the start as well. They've been in it for so long that they've forgotten about the start. Yeah, they've forgotten what it feels like to actually start and to actually be at the start of your journey, which let's face it is very difficult. Like with all of the impossible syndrome, all of the limiting beliefs, like that's almost gone for them. And so if I was going to give any advice, I would say do what Sam's done, which is literally just get somebody almost just ahead of you and look at them like, well, if they can do it, so can I, but they still remember what it feels like to be in your position. That'd probably be my advice that I would do. And then move as you've done, move to to different ones, but just do what's right for you and invest and everything like that, absolutely. What am I celebrating at the moment? My goodness, so much is happening recently. So I'm celebrating at the moment. you have, yeah, you have, well, do you have Facebook, Sam? I do, yeah. Yeah, so I don't use Facebook very often. sort of just sort of repurpose Instagram. Instagram is kind of where I live. But one thing that Facebook does for me is Facebook's beautiful at reminding me about memories and reminding me about events. And ever so often, Facebook will say to me, this happened a year ago, this happened two years ago, etc. And then I was just going through my Facebook and lately they've been giving me like five year memories, nine year memories, 13 year memories in some instances. And I have like these moments recently of reflection in such a wonderful way because I was talking to somebody at the weekend because I lead and probably you do as well, Sam, such a fast paced life. Like my life is fast. Like. 100 miles an hour. It's not slow. But it actually gave me time to almost this weekend sit and reflect and go, actually, my god, like that was five years ago. That was nine years ago. Like I'm almost a different person to who I was in a lovely way, because I think it's important to grow and develop. And I think I'm just celebrating today like a very reflective weekend in a really positive way to think, wow, like so much can change and you can almost Each year or each day you can almost turn a page and create a new chapter of your life. don't have to, your identity doesn't need to be dictated to what you did yesterday or what you did a year ago. You can literally flip it and become... whoever it is you want to be at any stage in your life. And so if anyone's listening to this and kind of thinking to themselves, I can't really change my identity. I can't shift it. I can't move into that next bit. People see me as a lawyer. People see me as a doctor. People see me as a nurse. People see me as a teacher. That doesn't define who you are. You can be whoever it is you want to be. So I think I'm just... you're the only one that can make that change. If you want to be someone else, you're the only one that's going to make that change. Yeah, literally and no one can change it for you like and and I talk to people often you know and I've said to people um Where I've said I don't think you're ready yet. I think you're still holding on I said you will be ready, but I can't I can't see it just yet because they're holding on so tightly and I'm like It's just not your time yet I'm like give it a couple of months and you'll come back and I'll look at you and think now you're ready now Yeah. So it's a really interesting one. um But let's get into it then, Sam. Let's talk about this 28-bed HMO. This is what the people want. Let's do it. Okay, so first, well let's talk about it for anybody who's either done it or is looking to do it. Let's talk about this. oh My first question to you is this, how did you come across this 28 bed HMO? How did you find it? How did you acquire it? What's the journey of it? Yeah. So, um, I literally found it on right move. Um, it was, I think it was listed wrong. So it is listed in residential. Um, whereas I would typically think that property would be listed in commercial. so when I'm flicking through, you know, the right moves of the world, most people tend to go from low to high on the price range. Um, and every now and again, I'll do the flip. So I'll go from high to low. Um, just to see what's out there. Is there any big, you know, developments or big, um, houses that can be turned into bigger things? Um, and I saw this one, it was, uh, advertised to go to auction and, I messaged the agent about it. was like, yeah, I'd love to have a viewing. was like, bro. Yeah. Booked you in with, with the seller. Um, so sort of director vendor in a way. and then. uh just before it turned up that it went off market. They pulled it out the auction and I was like, oh, and rang the agent was like, am I still going round? And he was like, yeah, yeah, the vendor still wants to see you. So was like, okay. Went round and one of the first things he said to me was, I've been looking at you on LinkedIn. I was like, okay. And he was like, yes, I knew you were serious. I was like, okay, great. And yeah, sort of showed me around this place and this guy was, I mean, he was a bit strange, but he was really quiet, older gentleman, cracking jokes. And I was like, you seem like a lovely fellow. And yeah, obviously it was like, this is brilliant. I can see the potential in it. Obviously went home, cracked my numbers out and was just like, yeah, this is a corker. This is gonna change our lives. And then, yeah, obviously we were the only ones, because we'd taken it off the market, were only ones interested in it. So we got to have that rapport with the vendor, which was great on some levels. And yeah, then started the conveyancing process. And then that's kind of where the drama started happening, really. Okay, so before we get into the conveying, I've written down a couple of questions for you uh as we go. So my very first question is, you said it was listed as residential, but actually I think it should be listed as commercial. Why? What was your definition? So because it was already a 28 bed HMO, it was operating as a HMO, had a license and obviously once you get over the sort of seven bed threshold, it's considered commercial in many people's eyes. So that's why I would have thought that would be in a commercial listing, but it was as an under residential. Yeah. wasn't like any shops or anything like that. It was purely just the 28 bed. Was there like lounges or were they sort of self-contained units in the HMOs? What was it like? Yeah, so again, this is a beautiful grotto hole. I love the grotto holes. it's got, so there's all, obviously the 28 rooms themselves, they've got shared toilets, showers, which are all very disgusting. There is a store room. So this place has been student accommodation since the 1990s. Decor hasn't changed. m And there is this huge room downstairs that I think they used to use as a common room. But now they just use it as storage. There's so much crap in there. m But we're hoping to use that to our advantage, that big space. There's no windows, so you can't change it into rooms or anything like that. m But for what we want to turn this building into, hoping to use that big room as an asset. But currently it's not being used. Okay, I love we're gonna come on to that and what you want to do with it we're come on to that. Just with this one, so you said something which was that usually people look at cheapest to or lowest price to most expensive price. You say sometimes I flip it on its head. What made you want to flip it on its head? Like what made you think, do you know what I really want big projects? What is it about big projects that really attracts you? I think for us is that I wanted to grow quickly. Like we've done various, we've scatter gunned massively in our journey. As I said, our first deal was a commercial to residential. We've done HMO, social housing, went to rent, buy to let, flips. So we've done a few things and it was just like, right, I'm getting closer and closer to 40. I want that freedom quicker. Alan is very, very stressed in his job and I can see the joy being sucked out of him. And we have a two year old at the moment, would love to have another one. And it's just that idea of, want the freedom and I want it now. And I know like a bigger deal is gonna get us there quicker. So this deal for us would get us Alan out of work potentially. If he wants to leave, I'm sure he will. But yeah, gets Alan out of work, but also starts to fuel my further goals. So as I mentioned, I used to work for charities and I'd love to come full circle. So that's my big, big goal is once, you know, we're financially free, I can help support our parents to become financially free. The next big goal is to have my own charity. And this deal in just one deal helps us to pretty much do most of that and to start my big, big goal. And then any property that we buy from then on in just helps to sort of fuel this next big goal for me. Wow, amazing. Okay, I love that. And I love the fact you've got your end goal in mind. You've got the why you've got all of that. I think that's absolutely fantastic. Do you know when he said to you, I've looked at you on LinkedIn? Were you like, okay, that's interesting. Has anyone ever said that to you before? No, not in that sort of like demeanor as such. Because you're like most of the time when people book viewings you don't sometimes get even the name of the person. So you must have been really keen to work with the agent to find out who's interested in his properties. And equally I was like, I'm so glad I keep my LinkedIn vaguely up to date. And it has prompted me now to do a lot more on LinkedIn. just, you know, not just from like that sort of property angle, cause that was really niche, but from an investor stance as well. just, you know, quite a few of my friends nowadays don't have Facebook, don't have Instagram because they can't be asked for social media, but have LinkedIn. Cause it's more of a work social media, isn't it? So it has sort of spurred me on to make sure that I am visible on all of those platforms. So yeah, it's been a sort of... That was a bit of a trigger learning curve as such. Yeah, it's funny. You never know who's watching, do you? You know, you always think, who am I updating this for? And then bam, you know, somebody will come along. Absolutely. And why? I'm just trying to understand his motive. So he then took it off the market before you even came to see it. How, why, how did that all work, work about like, it just seems a bit odd. Yeah, end to the start of this wonderful journey that we went on to. um Hold on, is this part of the convincing, this question, this story that I've just asked you? Alright, let's do it then, let's do it. So he took it off market, said that he'd found you, took it off market and I presume didn't go to auction, which is what the intention was. Okay, so tell me about this story then with this guy. Yeah, when I was walking around with it, walking around with him, he was sort of mentioned, I said, oh, you you've taken it off the market, you know, have you changed your mind? Do still want to sell it? He was like, yeah, I still want to sell it, although my daughter is doing a degree in America right now and she's flirting with managing this place. And I was like, how old's your daughter? He was like, oh, well, you know, she's early 20s. And I was like, it's big project for her to manage. Because he was self-managing it, there was no agents, was no one involved in it at that moment. And I was like, that's a lot, that's a lot to put on her. And I was like, oh, you know, she done property investing before, you know, she got a portfolio, you have you taught her the ways? And he was like, oh, well, no, she'd just been doing uni. And I was like, So yeah, I was just like, well. you know, we'll, we'll, we'll see if we can come to some arrangement. And I was like, you know, have you got prices in mind and started sort of negotiating on the spot? Um, he was a bit sort of hesitant to talk numbers with me straight away. Um, and anyway, from that point was like, right, well, this is a huge building. need to do a hell of a lot of due diligence before I can a hundred percent put in an offer in, um, And then a little bit more research into this property and found that there's an electrical substation within the property. So that was a bit like, ooh, never seen that before. So that opened up a whole plethora of extra due diligence. Can we get insurance on it? Can we even get a bridge on it? Can we get exit funding on it? Is it safe? I don't want to take on a property that's going to emit electrical rays and, you know, turn someone into a frog. I wanted to make sure that this place was going to be okay. So obviously then that spouted loads of things and I was talking to my solicitors, brokers, insurances. It was really hard to find insurance. That was actually probably the hardest bit. I was speaking to the vendor. was like, you know, how do you deal with the insurance? goes, I didn't tell them about the substation. You're like, okay. And, you know. starts to paint a picture of this guy. And then, yeah, managed to get insurance. So that was good. I rang National Grid to talk to them about this substation, to ask more questions about it. Didn't think I'd get a lot of answers, but actually they were amazing. Spoke to like their senior engineer who like lived around the corner from this place. And you told me about this thing is Safe as Houses. It's because it's so old, they built it with... better quality materials and stuff like this and how it's concrete encased and all this sort of jazz. And I was like, you know, what about the admissions? And he was like, you're going to get more admissions off your clock radio than you are from this thing. So that sort of filled me with confidence. He was like, you know, if you need our insurances, our paperwork, and obviously their national grid, they're going to have to have all of these health and safety stuff in place. uh So managed to feel more confident about that. And then obviously from a lending perspective, it's a big property. So a lot of lenders don't like it. They don't like that it's such a big property. And obviously because of what we want, we would like to do with it. We would love it to be either assisted living or social housing or corporate. And then the last resort is sort of private rentals because don't really want to have to manage 28 bedrooms. Although of course we'd have an agent, but it's still a lot of admin to manage. So yeah, I had of a lot of due diligence. uh And then yeah, this guy, I mean, the story is so long, it's much longer than an hour. But yeah, this guy who just did lots of demands, because we took a lot while doing the due diligence, he then started threatening to pull out and wanted uh like a holding deposit and this and that and essentially this kind little funny little man turned into an absolute keyboard warrior and there was just drama left, right and center with him. And then, know, on the point of we got, we exchanged because we had to exchange uh pre getting our valuation because this guy was just demanding, demanding, demanding, I want to exchange by this date otherwise I'm going to let my daughter have it. So we weighed up risk, though, you know, obviously there was a lot of risk involved because we exchanged before even getting the valuation. So we managed to get solicitors to draw up different contracts that if we didn't get the val we wanted, we had the option to walk away. Fortunately, we did get the valuation. It was fine. But then our bridge lender was like, by the way, we would like a deed of subordination from your investor. At that point, our investor was like, what the hell is this? And our investor, you know, we told them right from the start, our lender will always have first charge. We've got personal guarantees, blah, blah, blah. But the deed of subordination, if you don't know what that is, is just a really archaic form. essentially saying what a first charge is and what that means for anyone after that first charge. And it just scared them. And that was another learning for us is getting the right investors on board. It took a lot of time and a lot of stress trying to get that investor to feel comfortable, to manage the vendor who was just a pain in the ass. And then our investor who was obviously clearly worried and it didn't matter how much reassurance we could give him, he was just worried and fair enough, it's a lot of money that they're investing in us. But we managed to talk the lender around to change it to a deed of subordination instead, which is same, same, but slightly different. We also gave him a second charge in surges personal guarantees, which gives him that extra layer of reassurance and security. And then just kept those conversations going. But in the background, I was trying to find a different investor to see if I could find someone else that was more comfortable with that situation. in one month or two months, it was a bit like, is this still actually happening? It's about to fall over. Nearly fell over about five different times. But it all happened. We're there. And now I've got 28 keys. Yeah, amazing. Okay, there's obviously so much I want to talk to you about Sam as you were speaking then I was literally just like, right, okay, here we go. So the first one is, is talking about this electrical substation as it were. what, what's an electrical substation and what do people need to be aware of if they ever come across one of these? Yeah, so a lot of the time substations are, they kind of look like little brick houses in amongst other houses, but that it's usually on its own separate thing. Sometimes they're right at the bottom of someone's garden. They're never usually inside a property. And a substation is essentially something that then filters electricity out into the local community, essentially. I don't know. the super scientific reasons of what a substation is, but that's it in a nutshell. Yeah, I've never come across that before. So when you said that, was like, oh, was like, what is that? Like, what do we need to be aware of? But I presume when you're taking on old 28 bed HOOs, the types of things that you could come across. Absolutely. I did ask many, many investors, many developers who had never heard of this done before. Again, was a bit like, are we doing the right thing? But yeah, as soon as we were like, I spoke to National Grid, that filled me with a load of confidence. Then obviously insurance, as soon as we could get insurance, which did take a while, we went through a few insurance brokers, but managed to found an insurer that would insure it. And then obviously the lending on the backend, had to make sure that we found the right value. Like they hold the keys to so much with a lender. And so I had to ring, I think I ran five different value is to see how they felt about it. And we're like, no, don't touch it with a barge pole. And someone like, just ignore it. It's fine. And you're like, Oh, you can value it then. So yeah, it's just, it's a lot of extra admin essentially. Yeah, I think it's incredible what you've taken on. really do. And I think it's brave. I think it's inspiring. I think fair play to you girl. Like there's so many hurdles that you've had to overcome in both directions. Um, one of the things I want to talk to you about with this also is, is this notion that, you know, you wanted this big dream of taking this on, but you knew that clearly you've said it yourself that you didn't have the finances in order to, pay for this yourself. So then you had to go down the investor route. So as you know, Sam, you know, we talk about investing. on a daily basis with everybody, like within the community, social media, like the number one question probably you get asked and I get asked is, how do you find an investor? It's probably the number one question. So in terms of then your investors for taking on such a big project and them wanting to invest in you, and like you said, you know, you've got to you've got to think about how you choose to write investors. How did you go about finding your investors for this? Yeah. So, I mean, we've been using private investors for a long time and pretty much since day one. And it's been sort of, as we've got more and more experience, that level of investment has got more and more and more. And this particular investor was one of our other investors' dad. So he got referred to us by his son. So he found us that way. And obviously we had that link already. So there was that element of trust there already. And it's just working with your investors on just finding out what makes them tick. This particular investor was very detail focused. So we knew we needed to give him all the details that we could. So when even like our initial conversations, we were showing him like our number spreadsheet of how we work out a deal. and being like, you these are the comparables, not as many comparables. This is our plan for it. These are the people we're going to talk to if you know, the assisted living for m social housing. These are, you know, our different exit strategies because this building is a big one, it's a quirky one. We've got about five different exit strategies for it. So showing him each individual exit strategy and how we're going to do that. and just throwing all the detail at him. And yeah, it was just a shame that obviously with the deed of subordination that we didn't know that was coming. We know it's quite common practice, but our lender didn't tell us that they wanted that until literally the last minute, which was quite frustrating. So what did that mean? Did that mean that your investor then did pull out and you had to find a different one? Is that what happened? So we thought he was going to and that's why we were desperately trying to find someone else to fill his shoes. they changed it, they? The lender changed it to what they needed it to be. Yeah. in the interim, we got a... because he had his solicitor and then we had our solicitor, but his solicitor wasn't a property solicitor. So that complicated things because she saw things very black and white. She didn't know the property landscape. And obviously my solicitor was acting on behalf of us. So there was that element of, he's just going to say what you want him to say sort of thing. So I got him a meeting with a different solicitor. And this just proves the power of your network as well. And that comes to our property and Papa Don's networking. um And he had a really frank, honest conversation with him and the son and sort of gave him a bit of a hug, but also was just a bit like a bit of a realization slap. um And then talked him around essentially. And was just like, you know, these things. know, data subordination is so super common. It is just informing you what a first charge is essentially. You always knew you were gonna be after a second charge and you know, with high risk, high reward, right? And you know, this deal is backed up by X, Y, and Z. So yeah, he just managed to talk them around, which was great. Yeah, I owe a lot to That's Listed too. Yeah, was a real, I mean, I don't think I ate for about two weeks. I was just so anxious. But yeah, we got there in the end. Good, through the stress, absolutely. But do know what, like, again, it's not what you know, it's who you know, and it's the people that were able to help you and surround you and things like that, which absolutely sounds amazing. So what's your plan now then, Sam? So you've taken this on. I mean, I know that there's more than an hour's worth of stories behind the actual acquisition of this property, and we all know that. I'm sure that people are gonna wanna get to know you even more and get to hear more of the stories as it were. But what's the plan now in terms of you've now gone through the stress, you've now acquired it, like, what's the good bits now? what's the plan for it, what's your exit, what does it all look like? Yeah, so now that we own it, it was straight away talking to the tenants. We inherited tenants. So when we exchanged, it was fully tenanted, so full 28 bed, 28 tenants. Between exchange and completion, that fortunately managed, we managed to get, well, naturally loads of them moved out. So we inherited 16 and we've just been in the process of trying to get those tenants out. And it sounds like evil landlord getting those tenants out. But if you saw this place, it's horrendous. I don't wish anyone to live in this place as it is currently. And these people deserve a better place to live. So we, although yes, we have served them section 21s, I am actively trying to support them as much as I can to find other accommodation. and sending them like spare rim.com links and all the rest of it and talking to landlords on their behalf and just doing whatever I can to support them to move to the next place. Cause you know, I want to see them move to somewhere nicer cause it's not nice at the moment. But yes, so once the tenants are out, then it's obviously full build mode and we are talking to different providers at the moment. assisted living and social housing to see what they would like to see out of the property. And we're trying to sort of broker a contract pre-build. But we know roughly that essentially we just need to bring this place back up to standard. We need to try and put in as many en suites as possible and get rid of those shared facilities as much as possible other than obviously the kitchens and reinstate this common room. So if it is used for assisted living or social housing, then that room lends itself to being a classroom or an office space or a workshop area, like something that would be really vital to a charity. Because yeah, we've done quite a few things with social housing to date and they really value those bigger communal areas like a living room or something like that so they can do charity work within. within it and support their tenants. So yeah, so that's where we are at the moment. m And yeah, those conversations are still happening. yeah, fingers crossed. And then obviously if the social housing assisted living doesn't happen, m we've already kind of got a promise of a contract of a corporate let. So again, someone would take that whole property on and then manage the tenants and manage essentially an essay for corporate people. they would manage. I love that. just finally, just before going to hear about your property disaster, Sam, like knowing what you know now with the property, like what bit of advice would you give to yourself from when you looked at the song Right Move and found this to where you are now? Like what bit of advice would you say to the you now from before, even the you then? Um, in some ways that's quite hard because in anyone that's saying that they want to do a big project, my first usual bit of advice is get a mentor. And we did have a mentor. So we, we had that in our locker. Um, due diligence, we do diligence to that place, to the last bit, as much as we, possibly could. I think advice wise, so hard. It's just trust in your gut, think. Main bit of advice is if you really know this deal works, then keep going. Because we could have given up so many times. And equally, I question myself, would I do a big deal again like that? And you're like, oh, would I do it again? And I think I'll probably give myself about a year off and then maybe consider something. But I think I'd look at it. slightly different deal, whether that's a big deal acquiring a flat block, let's say. So a big deal, but an easier big deal, if that makes sense. Yeah, and also just to say you found this on Rightmove. It didn't need to be complicated. It didn't need to be crazy. It literally was found on Rightmove. So sometimes simple is better. It really is. I love that. So Sam, talk to me. As you always know with Girls and Property, because we love it and we keep it real, we want to know, tell me a property mishap or a property disaster that you have experienced either with this 28-bed or one of your other ones. Tell me. I mean, I've got a long list. I had COVID down tools two weeks before I finished. I had a solicitor disappear midway through conveyancing. A tenant fled the country. A development company go bust. Builders down tools because they were crap dear PM. A new valuation. There are tons, tons and tons. And this property roller coaster is just that. It is a roller coaster. There is never a smooth ride and you've got to take. rough with this move essentially. um But I think, I'll talk about the property development company going bust. uh So that was on one of our HMOs. So we were doing a dormer extension, the roof was off and we were on our way to Warrington to go to a property networking thing. And I get a call from the development company being like, so we've gone into liquidation, we've downed tools. Um, and that's it. We've walked off site. was like, cool. We, um, we have no roof. So are we just open to the elements now? Um, and he was like, yeah, essentially I was like, great. Okay. so, and then from that one call, I had an abundance of calls from different investors that use the same company and, different people within that company all messaging me. And it turns out that that development company, they screwed over their own mum, because they were involved in that company. They screwed over their own brother. There was no holes barred. These people were horrendous. But anyway, we went into absolute panic for about an hour and then was like, right, what can we do? Fortunately for us, we had been to site literally the weekend before. And Hallie was probably about six months old at this point. So we went around to site with baby in carrier and we spoke to the builder. Cause fortunately they subcontracted out to a separate builder. We'd had a good chat with him, didn't get his number, but we had built up a little bit of a relationship with him. Unbeknown to me at that time, that builder bless his cotton socks. was like, I'm not leaving this couple with their roof off. And he stayed, even though he knew he might not get paid, he stayed to make that place watertight and put tarpaulins over and stuff like that to make sure that the property was okay. And I was like, that earns huge brownie points in my book. um And we managed to get this builder's number and spoke to him and was just like, I don't wanna waste any time. We'll talk about money, we'll make sure that you're still paid and we'll try and recoup what we're owed. But essentially he carried on. So we only really lost about two weeks in the end, because obviously he pulled his whole team off and went elsewhere. So he managed to pull his team back and it did finish. We did lose, we lost some money. So we lost about 30K for this company. However, we made it back on the backend, which I'm super stoked about. So when I remember when we were talking to our broker about refinancing it, she was like, you'll only ever get a times eight multiplier. And I was like, no, I think we can get 11. She's like, no, can't be done. You'll only get times eight. And I was like, screw it, I'm getting it. um So I made a real point of making a luxurious valuation pack. for the value went round. I made sure that the agent was there with me as well. And we had three out of the seven ASTs in place. So at that time, and I shmoosed this value as much as I could possibly shmoose him and bought him coffee and all sorts, just to, just to make sure that he loved the property. We had interior designers as well. throughout the whole process. so obviously it was a beautiful one when we finished it. And this value walked around and was like, it's so nice not to see white and gray. And I was telling him all about what we've done to the place and stuff. And he took that valuation pack home and we've got our 11 times multiplier. Because I was determined to make some of that money back. So yeah, we did it and it was fully rented out within I think about a month. took that extra bit of hard work, but I think it almost made things, well not made things better, but it just drove me to, right, let's really believe in this building. Let's strive for that extra value. Let's strive for that extra rent and things like that really. So disaster turned good, I think. Honestly, Sam, like I sit here and I listen to you and I just think, my God, like so many things I think to myself. So first of all, the first thing I think to myself is you're proof, you're literally proof of a person who isn't necessarily like 20, 30 years ahead. You're just ahead, but you are doing incredible things. Like so many people are going to be listening to this today, thinking how inspiring you are. And I really hope listeners that you will, whatever you're doing, driving to take the kids or anything and thinking, wow, Sam's story is amazing. look at her go but do know what do you know what do you know what sam did guys like if you listen to what she's saying she didn't accept what people told her she didn't just accept her fate like she put hard work grit and determination into actually achieving what you've achieved like you deserve it all sam because you put that extra bit in you put that extra thing in and you know what like Even I'm listening to this thinking to myself, God, that is, you've been through a lot with it and I'm sure there's things we haven't even heard, but you kept on going and I think that's such credit to yourself. And I think at the moment you're almost like a real gem of a secret because I think although people know about you, not enough people know about you. and actually with your story and yeah, like your story and the determination that you actually say, it's great. you've got your young daughter and you wanna do more. And I think that you're gonna inspire a lot of people on this episode because you're the one who made that valuation happen. Anyone else could have accepted the fact that they couldn't have got. a times 11 valuation. They'd have gone, okay, the lender's telling me I can't get it. They've said to me, it's impossible, I can't get it. So I might as well just accept that. You're like, no, even though you're the lender, I'm disagreeing with you, I'm gonna go and do. I think what it is is, here's my takeaway for everyone listening to this. In life, here's my takeaway for you all. In life, if you do every single thing in your power, no matter what to try and get you the result that you want, at least you did everything in your power to achieve it, no matter the outcome. So what Sam did was Sam went above and beyond with the valuation pack, getting there, getting the agent there, with getting, I mean, I don't know what comparables you can get, comparables and things. And really going forward, like you, the one who made that happen, nobody else. So I think that's the main takeaway from today. It's like, keep going because Sam, I tell you what, the majority of the calls and things I'm getting at the moment, I'm not sure if it's July, I'm not sure if because summer holidays are coming, but I'm thinking a lot of people are feeling quite lost at the moment. And I think a lot of people are feeling quite like this roller coaster that they're on and it's almost like they can't see the end of the light. It's almost like they're in it. They're in the thick of it and they're feeling like... Property is so slow, property is so draining. They feel like they're failing. keep getting a lot of DMs of people telling me that they feel very behind. They feel like they're wasting their time. Like what advice would you give to them knowing your story? You can only work to your own timeline. We used to get a bit downhearted in the scroll hole of watching when we very first started of people with the keys and being like, I've got another one. I've got another one. And we were like, still trying to find the first one. And you can only go at your own pace. When we first started, we were both in full-time work. I've slowly managed to go from full-time to part-time to out. It takes a hell of a lot of time and dedication. In 2019 when we first started, we told our family and friends, you're not gonna see us for a whole year. In January we sat down with a calendar and we like, if you don't tell us now, we're not gonna be there. So if there's a wedding or a christening or a birthday, if you want us to be there, you need to us now, because otherwise you're not gonna see us. Every weekend, every evening, we were pounding it. And I said to myself, you know, on those really tough days when you're knackered, I was like 10 minutes. That is my goal. 10 minutes every day. And 10 minutes sometimes was just 10 minutes and sometimes was two hours, three hours. But it gave me that a little bit of just reassurance that 10 minutes is still something, whether that is literally just a scroll through right move and just a heart on a few properties. It's something you're stepping forward. um And you can use... lose so much time comparing yourself and thinking, I'm not doing this right, I'm not doing that right. What is right for you? You can only go as fast as you can go. So yeah, that's pretty much my advice, I think. Beautiful I love that. Do you know what I saw? Yesterday I saw a meme and I'm gonna share it so I thought it was perfect I didn't know this you know 1 % a day is just 14 minutes To move so to move forward one to move forward 1 % every day is 14 minutes. So if we can just Say it again I wasn't far off with my 10 minutes. No, you were perfect. It's 14 literally. So I think if we can all move forward 10 to 14 minutes every day in that 1 % you cannot fail. You just cannot fail literally. So if you're listening to this and going, I hear you Athena, I'm in that lull period. Thank you to you both. Like come on 14 minutes we can do it. Let us know, send both me and Sam what you're doing in those 14 minutes. Like even if it's just to try and prove your mindset, like whatever it may be, just do something for you to make you progress in some way, or form on your day. Absolutely. Um, Sam, I've loved today's episode. I think it's inspiring. I think it's interesting. I think there's so much that like I've learned so much today, like electrical substation I've written down and the fact that people can actually find you on LinkedIn. I've never had that yet, but let's, let's, you one day it will happen. And you know, it's such an interesting conversation and I can't wait to hear more about it and almost like get you back on to hear the progress of the 28 beds and what they became and the contracts and things like that. But so many people are gonna wanna talk to you and you know, speak to you more and of course you're part of Now Girls and Property Community which is so exciting. But you know, if people wanted to connect with you online, what is the best place to find you? Yeah, so Instagram is probably the best place. And so we are under move to grow properties. And then yeah, if you hit me up on there, I'm more than willing to share my number and email if people have got further questions or just want to get in contact. And that's absolutely fine. bless you Sam, thank you so much. And as always guys, on Instagram I'm Athena Dobson, underscore official, and on Instagram I am Girls and Property. A lot of you have been messaging me recently asking about upcoming events, upcoming things that taking place for Girls and Property, like more and more people are finding us now. So to be honest with the best way to do it, if you wanna know about what's going on, is to join our mailer. So our mailing list will go out with all the information that's coming up. So coming up now, there is going to be a um winter party that's gonna be taking place for the community, but non-communities will be welcome to join as well. And that's gonna be taking place probably in October or November time. if you wanna be... involved in that, it's going to be in person, because I love the in person stuff, then come and get on the mailer and I'm going to be announcing the retreat dates for next year as well in April and some more workshops that I'm doing and I'm also announcing something very, very exciting in September for Girls and Property. So that's being announced in September, so again join the mailing to find out more about that. um And at the same time, I definitely recommend everybody who's on Instagram to follow Girls and Property because there's everything on there. You can see what we're doing, you can stay in contact, but the Mailer is where you're find out about it beforehand, whereas Instagram you might just see the after party. So join the Mailer and the way to do that by the way is in the show notes. I'll make it really clear for you. I'll write join the Mailer here or what I'll do is just let you know now if you go to www.girlsinproperty.co.uk you can join the Mailer there. But Sam thank you so much for today. I've loved it. I hope you've enjoyed it as well and podcasting. um I just thank you so much for your time, your effort. You've inspired me today. I feel very inspired by you and everything that you're doing. um yeah, love having you in the community and can't wait to just hear more from you and you to help and be helped as well. So I hope you really enjoyed it today. I have, thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. And guys, as always, you know where to find us if you want to. Just DM us and send us a message. Keep listening to the podcast. Don't forget to like, share and subscribe because it really helps in terms of the algorithm to get more people to know about girls and prophecy. And any questions you've got, come and find me. Have the most amazing day, everyone. Take care and speak to you soon. Bye for now.