What If You Just Started? Libby Walker on Failure, Cash Flow and Courage

In this episode of the Girls in Property podcast, I chat with Libby Walker, someone I have genuinely watched and admired. Libby got into property at such a young age, and what I love most about her is how open she has always been about the things that go right and the things that do not. From the very start of her journey she has shared everything she is learning, and I think that honesty is so important in this industry.

It has been amazing to watch her grow, gain confidence and really understand what she wants from both her cash flow businesses and her property journey. We talk about how it does not have to only be property — you can be an entrepreneur, try different things and still bring it all together in a way that works for you.

In this conversation, we explore her early experiences, the lessons she learned from her first flip, the difference between making cash flow and building long term wealth, and the power of just taking action. Libby reminds us why celebrating the small wins, knowing your why and being honest about the process matters more than getting it perfect.

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Transcript

0:01

Good morning everyone and welcome to today's episode of the Girls and Property podcast. Welcome to all the brand new listeners if you're tuning in today for the first time. Welcome to Girls and Property. You have tuned into a fabulous episode and to everyone who always listens to the podcast, thank you so much for all of your energy, your DMs, um your loyalty. It's really, really appreciated and I see and I hear you all. So thank you so much. So if you're tuning into today's episode, you have probably be interested. in the conversation that me and this particular person are gonna be having, which is all around uh cash and it's all around wealth generation and how you can get almost the perfect blend of both um in different ways and formats. Now, the reason that I also am so excited about this particular episode is because I've been following this person for some time now, whether she knows it or not, and I've always used her in this podcast actually a few times. As an example of a person that I really, really love to see in the way that she tells her story and tells the way that she does property and business as it were. And I also really love to show the girls an example of how you can do things within the property space and business space to really show the good, the bad and the ugly really, which I think is a really, really positive thing. So that's what we're going to do today. This podcast is all about giving value and it's all around wanting to really help you to accelerate and to really move forward. And that's what I know me and Libby are going to do today. So without further ado, I would love to introduce Libby Walker to you all. Hey Libby. I'm good. I am super excited for today's episode because I know that you actually do listen to the Girls and Property podcast. We were just speaking about this before that you came on and you were telling me some of the episodes that you love. And I was like, I love that. And I love the fact that you listen to the podcast because I feel the people who listen really understand the best value to then give for the podcast as well. Cause you kind of as a listener then know, right, what gems, what nuggets would somebody actually want to really be listening to. And as I said, Libby, I've always loved watching your journey as well, just from, you know, everything that you've done. You're such a young, powerful woman and I just think that it's a real inspiration to so many people as well. So I'm not gonna take your limelight. I'm gonna give you the microphone, the stage. I would love for you to tell your story, tell everyone kind of about you and how you even got into property and before property and then where you are now in your journey and then we can kind of take the conversation from there and we can then lead into today's conversation. Yeah, no, thank you so much for inviting me on. I feel so lucky to be able to actually be the other person and be on it instead of listening. So thank you. I got started in property quite early on, so I'm now 22. And I'd say I got into property when I was 18. So left college, which is obviously at the legal age, you can technically leave education. And I got my first property lettings job. So I just knew I wanted to be in property. I just had this... urge to get into it. don't really know where it came from. I think it was possibly watching TikTok at the time and Instagram and seeing other people. And got into this first job, started doing that, but by working for this letting agent, so I was like, no, no, like I want to actually be the people in the property, like doing the property. So I started going to courses, networking, and after months of trying and got a rent to essay in em Harrogate, which is a town near me and I took that on a two year contract with the landlord, um which essentially is subletting, which you are allowed to do in this context and having it on Airbnb. I had it there two years, I say, and I've just given that back this year because he has now sold it contract came to an end. But during that, I also got my first flip. So I'd done so much training. really wanted to get into, um, refurbing. Like it was just such a thing that I really wanted to do. And I was desperate to, I was obsessed. by just going to these events and even was viewing properties, cause I tried deal sourcing very briefly. And I actually had family say to me, look, if you find a good deal, like we might be interested. Fast forward. I ended up viewing a property like. 15 minutes away from me, know, back step a bit, I was going to view this property and by chance this family member said, I'll come along with you. Cause it was a, it was a vendor only viewing. So I was meeting the vendor and I got told it was just a man. And I think I was a bit like, you know, who am I about to meet? You know, you always think in the back of your head, like what's going on here? Like why is the no estate agent going? Like I'm literally going into this house with someone I don't know. And anyway, this family member came along. And this family member was obsessed like, my gosh, what can I do here? And it was almost like, you know, in the universe gives you that opportunity and that sign for something to line up. It lined up perfectly. And this obviously fast forward, ended up getting the house. There was a lot to it, which obviously I won't go into fully. It wasn't just a case of we were like, yeah, we'll buy it. Like there was so much behind this, but we got the property. We've just sold it this year. So profits in the bank did really well on it. I'm very happy with it. And that's me now, but obviously we're going to go on to talk about where I'm up to at the moment, because it has had a complete shift, if I'm honest. uh And a lot of this comes into the conversation of cash flow versus wealth creation. It's something that I quickly realized is so important because whilst I was refurbing, had come down with the hours at the letting agents. So I was making enough to live. Um, pay to live at home, which I'm lucky I still am able to do pay for my car. like to go out with friends a bit, but obviously there's still, you know, you need to be making more cash as well, if that makes sense. So yeah, that's basically my journey. I'm currently, haven't got any projects to talk about at the moment because I am on my little break. I saw cash flow out and this new business, but that is in a nutshell where I'm up to. yeah, you could technically say I've done four years in property now, which is pretty crazy. Yeah, absolutely. And we're going to come on to this sort of this new venture and this new business of yours. So I have so much to unpack with what you just said there, Libby. I've got so much I want to talk to you about. let's just sort of take it from the top and then we can we can go with that. So number one is you're 22 years old now, like 22. You know, you are a young, inspiring woman. And that's what I really love about you. And you said that you started at 18. I mean, you know, some people start at 18, some people start at 30, some people even start at 50, etc, etc. Like, did you ever feel that being an 18 year old in a letting agency, like with others around you, were they a similar age, were they older, like how did you feel that, like you were treated as a young woman within that space? Looking back, actually my first, so I've had two let in agent jobs, similar roles, but the first company I only did a year. was horrendous. And looking back, I actually got trapped very poorly. The management, like it was really bad. think obviously when you're coming into that environment, you're very, you don't have a clue. did genuinely, I'm not afraid to say it. I didn't have a clue. And I got this job purely by, cause I used to work at TK Maxx and I used to like go to college, my business course, and then just go work, finish there at like four and then I'd go with like five till nine at TK Maxx in the evening, or I would do the weekends, whatever. And one day I was like, I need to get out. And then this is where property came into it. And I just decided, do you know what, my day off, like it was in two days time or something. spent like my next day printing my CV, put them all in envelopes and I went walking around all the local Latin and state agents near me for like a day. And I got offered two interviews. Um, and I then got off of both jobs and I took them and kind of noticing that the retail job and I went straight into it. So I was complete new bit and they knew this from the start. And it was obviously scary starting. Like I didn't know what to expect. Didn't know how it was. And I guess this was my first nine to five. Previously, it was just like shifts. It could be 12 to nine. It could be nine to three. You don't know. And it was obviously a very different lifestyle change. It was a new industry. And I think people really did sort of look at me and think. Like what is this girl even thinking? Like what's she doing? I think people take letting agents and estate agents seriously when it's really not. Like it's literally an office job where get out of the office sometimes in property. I'm quite, I'm not, disrespect to anyone that does that role because it's hard and I can tell you now it's hard. It's, it's a job and it can get tough and it's stressful when you're putting the hours in the work, but it is just, I shouldn't have taken it so seriously because I really did stress myself out. I think. A lot of people just saw me as this young girl of like, she ain't got a clue what she's doing. Um, from very early on almost took advantage of just the way that you're taught, like told to work and, um, pushed a lot. And I think cause you so new in that industry, they feel they can mold you how they want. And it's not fair. Really didn't go with a lot of my values, but obviously so early on, you sort of think you've got to follow that. And I think that. That even follows now, like I used to get so nervous going to networking events because I remember I used to go to one in Leeds and it would be like a room full of men. They'd like, maybe five girls. And I used to think, oh my gosh. But over time we're networking, you get very ballsy. You get to a point where you're like, I do not care. And I sometimes used to sit there and think, instead of seeing this as a weakness that I'm the youngest and like one of you girls, see it as powerful. Like how blessed am I to be the youngest in this room? to be around so much knowledge and experience. So when you shift it back and you think, I'm here for me, I'm here to do it for me, instead of thinking, what are people doing? What are people saying to me? Is that the odd comment? You sort of, you learn to park it, but early on it was a challenge. Yeah, definitely. I, I mean, how powerful is that as well? think, I think that sometimes in life, the things that happen to us really mold us into the people that we become. And, you know, at 22, Libby, you're so, you know, you're beyond your years. Do know what I mean? And it's, I see it as a real blessing that you almost went through that. What one thing I find really interesting actually is, is also what you just said is, it's this notion that you then decided that you wanted to go into the letting agency. and kind of start your journey in property. So I'm going to ask your opinion about something actually with this. So sometimes people ask me my opinion about, know, they DM me or we have a webinar and they say to me, Athena, what is your advice for somebody starting in property? What advice would you give to a person who's got a full time job that wants to start in property? And I give different pieces of advice, but one of the pieces of advice that I give is actually to not just leave a job, but almost to think to yourself, do you have any experience in property? any previous experience and if they say no I'm like well why don't you go and find a job within the sector that you're actually interested in you don't have to go from I have a job to now self-employed you don't need to be that you know that crazy fool that does that You can be like, well, do you know what? Why don't I go and be a lettings agent, a sales agent, a um surveyor, a person who has an EPC rating? I don't know anything. But, and you did that. You actually said, actually, I want to start in the lettings agent side of things, that I get my knowledge up and understanding of it and then go on from there. So my question to you is, do you feel that that actually did really help you within your then journey into property with the flips and the essays and everything? Was it a good step for you to do? you It was such, it was the best blessing, as hard as it was at the time. And obviously at the time I was thinking of, made a massive mistake because everyone was going to uni and I'm there in this job thinking, you know, I'm not getting qualifications from this. I hope it pays off and I hope it's going to teach me something. It was the best like teacher. And I think it gave me time to learn the most crazy stuff, like even about managing tenants and dealing with, I learned, damn. I'd be em learning how to communicate with both landlords and tenants who I will be dealing with. I've dealt with landlords. That's how I got my rent to SA. The tenants, I do at some point potentially want to be a landlord. em And at that point, I'm probably going to end up speaking to tenants unless they're managed. So I think I've got so many lessons from that. And it also gave me the opportunity to figure out what... direction in property I wanted to go into because there's so many different ways you can get into it. And by being fully absorbed in it, I was able to figure out, what is it you actually want out of property? And I think, to be honest, a lot of people probably still don't even know, you know, even if they're in property, they probably don't even know what they want out of property. I don't fully, although I do think it's become a lot clearer recently, but yeah, the letting agents was such a good thing and it's something I would recommend to people. I, and to be honest, in any sector. If you want a business in any sector, I think it'd be good to go get some experience under your belt, get a couple of years done in those couple of years, use that time to get networking, meeting people, going for coffees with people that are willing to go for coffees with you. I don't mean people starting out. mean people that are in it, like people that are already there. Get on LinkedIn, get connecting with people, get on conversations with people, arrange calls, just absorb yourself in that industry before making any moves into actually doing it yourself. Yeah, exactly. And this is what I say to people because I think that it's a really good transition then and I think it's got more longevity. And I think what I want the listeners to hear is like, and I've always said this, it's not a quick game. It's not like a race. It's not like a go, go, go, go. Yes, it's going to take you longer to get there because you're going to have to do a couple of years within the industry in order to then move forward if that is the direction you want to go. But then it's more sustainable. Like I don't know about you, Libby, but I see so many people that start with the best intentions and they literally are off like racehorse and it's amazing to see and then there's something that always trips them up. and then they end up going back to the starting point again. Whereas it's almost like snakes and ladders, you know, and it's like they keep going down these, these snakes and the people that are going a little bit slower are slowly going up the ladder. And it's like, well, what's your rush? What are you rushing for? And with that, you can then develop your why and develop what it is you want to do, which I can see, you know, which we're going to talk about in your journey about what you're doing. But I definitely appreciate that. And then the other thing that you just said that I touched on, sorry, you said so many things that I was like, I need to talk to you about this a second was we talk about this notion about cash flow and wealth generation. And what's interesting is, is you started off with a um strategy, if you like, which is a cash flowing strategy, rent to service accommodation. You take a property, you pay the landlord a rent, and then you rent it out by the nightly rate on Airbnb, and that's how you generate your profits, et cetera. So you started off with a cash flowing strategy, but you took the one, what made you stop from taking on any more from thinking, this is it. I've got my first one. I want to build cash. I'm good at this. Like what, what prevented you allowing that to be your cash flowing strategy? One thing about me, I am very good at taking calculated risks. Very good. And I was going to a lot of networking events. Maybe it was taking on people's, know, scaring and fear tactics. I was speaking to mortgage brokers and management companies and they were telling me AI like this is even recently, like it's going to come in. They're to be able to walk outside of street and they're going to see what's an Airbnb, what mortgages in place, is it allowed? And I thought times are so hard for landlords as much as it could be difficult to get a rent to rent. If somebody did want to do that company let structure, they were like, yep, just have it. And it was like quick, like they wanted it gone. They wanted someone, they wanted a company in place to take it on. And with that, I was always a bit like, have you got the right insurance? Have you got the right mortgage in place? does the freehold allow it, all these things. And I was very much like, if I'm in a contract and I've invested five grand into setting this place up and the furniture and everything, and someone comes knocking and says, you can't use this anymore for Airbnb. I am absolutely, there's no business. And I was like, I could be so overstretched with the money that I've put into it that I've not made back yet. I just felt like I'd be on pins the whole time. And I just started to get really bad feeling about rent to rent. And the other thing is it's become so saturated at the minute with short term, where it's, cannot tell you. I took mine on in Harrogate and at the time it was like, you know, there was quite a few there, but you could really succeed. Now there's literally multiple on a street. And I think to stand out is so difficult. think there's a massive problem with people obviously being short on money. So they think, I've got an extra room. can even rent that on Airbnb, which, you know, it helps people. great that they're able to do that. Or people are like, this extra. buy to let that I've got. It's not making me enough money to sustain me in a landlord. I'm just going to put it on Airbnb. And a lot of people have turned to that. So then I was also thinking something might come in here with Airbnb. And I think I was very much like at that point, start convincing yourself of the negatives. And I was always like, I'm putting all this time and effort into a property that I actually am going to have no involvement in another like 12 months time. And I really like to think I want to flip and I want to hold, but I'm not in a position to hold because you do have to likely leave cash in. So that's when I really, it was almost like I just had a couple of weeks and it was a real reality shift for me of do you want to do rent to rent? Because the original plan was to take like five apartments on another block down the road. And I'm so glad, I'm so, I feel so blessed that I didn't do it. At the time I was like, oh, you're failing. You're not sticking to the plan. this is, you know, when you think that you're getting a deal and it doesn't go ahead. It's a very sad day. Like you are feeling, I just want it to get into bed. But these things always work out, I think. And I feel as though you just can't be greedy because when you're greedy, you can make the wrong decisions. And I feel like by just taking that step back and thinking, right, calm, is this actually what I want to do? When I reflected, I was like, no, I don't feel comfortable doing it. I feel on pins with this current rent to rent as it is. Why would I want any more? And for some people it's a great strategy and it works really well. But for me at that point, I just decided no, I'm out. I'm going to keep this to the end of the contract. And then I want out and I want to own or I want to flip. I love that. And I like the fact that you didn't just rush into it because you thought, you know, because you, let's face it, Libby, you were developing your social media presence and your social media presence is fantastic. And we'll talk about that. And so I think that you could have got sucked into this idea of my social media is great. People are watching me. It'd be great if I could put out another story to show that I've just taken on five units and that would make me look really great. And people take me really seriously, but you're like, actually, that isn't what I want. And you kind of like at 22, which is very mature, kind of look within yourself to say, that isn't what I want. want to go over here and to pivot and to know that it was okay to pivot. So I think that's a massive win that you were able to do that. So I find that really interesting because I feel like me and you went on a really similar journey in that where I was developing my own rent to rent, HMO and service accommodation business. And I remember like there were, caused me such anxiety, like such anxiety and sleepless nights and burnout. And, you know, I've got, I've got so many examples of where I literally was there holding my head in hands with almost like everything was burning around me but yeah I couldn't do anything about it because it was too much I was self managing too much and trying to build girls and property and I like I can't do this like and I felt like a failure because I was like I can't do all of this why can't I do all this I'm supposed to be a superwoman and yeah I'm failing but there comes a point doesn't there where you look within yourself and you go this isn't what I want I want to do wealth generation and have a cash flowing strategy separate to property It doesn't have to be in the property sector, which I love. And then you also touched on the fact that you then went and found the split, but actually a family member went with you, which is incredible. So this family member, what happened? Were they literally like, actually, do you know what? I'm going to come with you. And did they end up becoming like your first investor? Is that the story of how it happened? Basically, um, they obviously had seen the hours I was putting in and what I was up to. And I was obsessed that there wouldn't be a moment that they won't like, just always be watching YouTube or learning or buying books or on courses. And they just saw that. And I think they just thought, do know what we're not investing or just solely in a property we're investing in you. And I came out of this viewing and just having a chat with them. was like, look, this is on for X-man. I reckon I can get it for this. The one opposite's gone for this. I think my refurb is at, you know, and really gave them that what they wanted. They did their own research and said, yep, let's go for it. Well, they said, okay, go offer that price. Offered that price. Did I get it accepted straight away or did I come up a little bit? No, I got it accepted straight away, straight away. And yeah, I was like, my gosh. But I do think on the social media thing, very key point. people I think are so quick to post things for their ego. So I, to be honest, as soon as I got that offer accepted on the flip, I actually kept it zipped. I was like, I could go blast it on social media. But I thought, because obviously everyone knew I've put so much time into my social media and so many hours. But actually, if you just remember you're doing this for work and it's a business, make sure you actually get it secured because a lot of people go on. And I think like, blow it out before they should. And I just sort of kept it zipped and kept it a bit quiet. And then obviously came on and posted about it. And I think social media can be a big thing for making you feel like you should go do these deals when actually you're doing that to look good. But at the end of the day, you're not going to feel good when you're doing exactly like you've said with your head in your hands. It's not nice. No, it's not a good feeling at all. And we're going to touch more on this actually, because I would like to talk to you about social media as well. But before we then sort of delve deeper into this, and I appreciate I've done a... You just said so many amazing things that I literally was like, I just want to ask you about this specific thing. So just before we go into it, Libby, can you just tell me about what you're celebrating at this moment? Because as you know, with Girls and Property, we always talk about what we're celebrating, because I think as women and individuals actually, we don't celebrate enough. You know, we're constantly go, go, go, go, go, next thing, but we don't take time to pause and reflect and really be proud of the achievements that we've done. So what are you celebrating? Personal, professional, could be anything you like. massively celebrating to enjoy the little wins. I never ever sit back and think, well done, Lib, like you've actually done that or that's gone well. I sold the flip and it's just like, what's the next thing? Like what's the next project? What's the next bit of money I'm chasing? Like I never enjoy the moment. So right now I am actually enjoying the little things in life. And I know it sounds really weird, but I got into property and into this whole world of business. Not just for, you know, I actually am a massive petrolhead. I love my cars. I love a nice car. oh And it's not even just that for me. It's a lifestyle like obviously the lifestyle, I mean, comes with money and freedom. However, I'm not shy of work. I actually enjoy work. I get bored very easily and I have to be constantly doing something and thinking about something and working towards something. So for me, it's working really hard, but celebrating little wins. So like going out for tea with friends on a random Tuesday night and just go in there and just enjoying myself. Or it's been able to go get my nails done at a non-peak time or go into the gym in the middle of the day and no one's telling me what you're doing. And I'm able to go do that. Or I can see my grandma around the corner and have a brew and whatever with her. Those little things. I'm like, this is why I got into property. And I also think that's an act of manifestation, which I'm a massive person for, because that is how I see my life in the future. I see my life in the future as... having this freedom and having these things to be able to go do without anyone telling me what you're doing. So by living that now or like going on these nice little coffee dates in the morning and getting my steps in and going to the gym, that is how my life's going to be in the future. So it's almost like me doing this now is getting on the right frequency and wavelength of my life then when I've got all this success. And it's a bit of a difficult one to explain if people don't understand, but that is how I'm doing it at the minute. And I feel so much happier for actually living in the moment and living in the present and celebrating. every little thing. So I think otherwise didn't celebrate getting the mentor say, cause I'm too busy setting it up. Then I'm too busy dealing with guests. And then I'm thinking, Ooh, so and so's got a flip like that looks good. I don't want to get into that. Then you're too busy chasing a flip. You're getting off for accepted. You're thinking, brilliant. Like I've got this, but you never actually celebrating it. You just think about, need to go on to the next thing. I need to do my schedule of words. What context am I using that? Where are we at with conveyancing? Get the project, get your keys. You're thinking, woo, but you're straight onto the work. And I just think nobody actually celebrates and enjoys what they got into property for. So I think it's a massive thing that I'm really trying to do in my life. even I'm working on it at the minute, but even going on holiday without feeling guilty, like I am a bit like, you can just go to Greece. If you even want to go to Greece and work whilst on your sunbed, go get a tan. Like life's about balance. I literally did that recently. literally, yeah, we took, we made sure that me and my mum both understood it was a working holiday. We, you know, she took her work. I took my work. I was like, this is working, just so you know. But we were literally on a sunbed just with our laptops. And we were like, well, I'll just get a towel while I create my lifestyle, my girls and property accelerator program. gave me more, do you know what? It gave me more creativity. It gave me more inspiration to be listening to the sound of the waves than to be in a cafe in Bournemouth, do you know what I mean? Like it just, creativity, like your creativity flows in different areas. And we always talk about this idea of like human design and it's like, well, maybe my setup is not meant to be in a desk. Maybe my setup is meant to be being in the sunshine by the sea so that my brain has space to really feel that. So you celebrating your little wins, your small wins Libby is just gold, gold on so many levels because I wish more people would do this. And I've openly said, uh more so recently of how lost I was when I first started like truly truly lost because I think what happens is that I think that the reason I was lost was I was 100 % not living my life, but living the life of somebody I thought I should be. And there's a really clear difference of that. And so, you know, when people talk to you about this idea of six figure businesses, seven figure businesses, 10 rent to rent, uh all of these things, and you're like, yeah, but why? Why do you actually want those? And you know, I could never answer that question. Never, never, never. And if I answered it, it would have been some lame answer. That probably wasn't even true. So now I literally say the same thing, which is the small wins. my idea now of being rich I genuinely couldn't give a damn about like when I was younger I definitely wanted to be a millionaire and I definitely wanted to have all the money in the world 100 % you know and I remember me and my mum going into a shop once and I said to mum, mum I really want this branded handbag and mum said well one day you're gonna be able to afford that branded handbag it was a Louis Vuitton I was about 16 very shallow person and and then and then that day came where I could afford it and I was like no mum I don't want any of that stuff I'd rather be on like a holiday or rather just be out with friends. I don't care about what handbag I have. People will know that now. People know like, I better have any jewellery, I better have any branded things. It's just not my thing anymore. And I think it's about enjoying the small wins. So my wins now are exactly what you just said. It's the same thing. It's about being able to go for tea or dinner. It's about being able to, you know, go on a Friday to go see the theatre with your friends, which I just did, for example, rather than being guilty about working as well. think guilt plays a massive factor in this about truly being able to switch off and not be thinking about that. So I, do you know what? I'm going to follow on your celebration. Actually, I was going to do a different one, but I'm actually going to do the same one as you, because I think it's an important one to do for everyone. It's let's together celebrate small wins where you truly take anything on board. And even for the listeners listening to this or it's then full-time employment, kids, you know, all of the hustle and grind that people have got to do. Think about your small wins today and what your small win was. and every single day think about your small win because no matter how small it is it's in the compound effect isn't it Libby of the the great of the greater greatness as it were so I love that and I love the fact you're celebrating that so okay so let's let's talk about this then to really try and help the listeners so this episode I really want to touch on is this notion about cash flow and this notion about wealth you know cash flow be wealth really really important now when people are in, when you were in and when people are in, full-time employment, you and you had that moment where you said to yourself, I don't want to be here, I have to go. There are people out there listening to this podcast who feel in the exact same way that you do, and they feel that they can't stay in their job. Now we get a lot of people actually who are in, example, the NHS. We got a lot of teachers. We get a lot of retail people who all come and say the same thing. So when they're thinking about this notion that let's say that they don't have a lot of money to start, but they know that property, because they've seen property is the way that they want to begin the way that they want to do things. And they've seen these notions of deal sourcing, management, rent, to rents, etc. ah And they're thinking about cash flow generation to them being able to then go and build this wealth as it were. Before I speak, I'm really interested to hear from you about if someone was to come to you and say, you know, cash flowing and property, and this is how I want to get into things. With your experience yourself that you've had, what would you say to those people and the listeners right now? Um, two main things. One thing is take a step back from social media. Anyone. It really, really infuriates me. It's a sensitive subject. Anyone selling a course. Honestly, just take a step back. Don't think with your, if you're in this job and you're desperate to get out, you want to replace your money. Just be so careful about anyone on social media selling a course, please. Like it's such a thing because it's a lot easier for these people to make money off a course than it is in property is truth be told. Property is hard to get the numbers to stack is hard. It's a very saturated industry in my opinion. And I think do not waste money on a course straight away. Second thing is why do you want to make, if it's cashflow particularly wanting to do to get out of your job, why do you want to be in property? Like what is the reason? Is it to look pretty round houses? Is it to, is it the money that you've been promised that people are saying on social media you can make? What is it? Because where I'm at now is I've tried the deal source and I've tried the rent to rent. They're not glitz and glam and they certainly that you earn your money, like then some rent to rent deals, yes, could be amazing. The cash for on it, you've got to get a very good deal. And this is where, when I said before about how saturated Airbnb is, for example, and deal sourcing, you can be wrapped until the end of doing all the due diligence and carrying a deal. And then it just falls out of bed and you've just read absolutely no money. And I think why is it property? I personally think there are other businesses that are not in property that can make you more money. for less work and less stress. And you can then use that cashflow to live and then get into property in other ways. But this is where you got to figure out why, like what is your why? And I think, to be honest, if people were to leave a job or something and was to go all in on a property strategy for cashflow, I don't actually think you can lose. I think you're either gonna win or you're gonna learn. So either way, even if you get into that and then you redirect it to a different sector of property, it's a win and you're taking action. It's not all. a loss, but just take your time and think about your why and think about what other property businesses there are. Like if you're that desperate to get into property, you can even do like, EPC businesses. You can do a court. It takes no time. can go round with round properties and do EPCs. They don't take long and you can make a good amount of money there. If you want to be in property, then go do that. Don't f- don't think that the only things you can do is deal sourcing and rent to rent or whatever, whatever people are promoting and just dive into what you actually want. Cause you can probably get that in other industries and then do property on the side or in the future from a different angle. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I agree with you. Just a couple of points though, because this is such an interesting conversation. think one that the listeners will really appreciate is so it's a really, it's a really interesting one. This notion about courses as it were, Libby, because I sort of sit on on two fences with this. So I've of course invested in loads of property education. And I've said openly, I've spent about 35,000 pounds on my own education. You know, I've been with all the big dogs. They were like the first people that I sort of invested with as it were. And I think I think in a way what happens is you meet two different types of people. I think, and I've certainly met two different types of people, I've met one type of person who rushes into things too quickly. So they don't just sit and think, and I might have been like this actually when I first started, they go, right, I've read a book on deal sourcing or I've read a book on rent-to-rent or I've seen someone be really successful on rent-to-rent, therefore I'm gonna go and pay to do a rent-to-rent course because I think that's what I wanna do. And so what they do is they rush, they just jump straight in because they think that if they pay money that will give them the answers and if you like the magic beans that will then build this amazing beanstalk for them and I think sometimes they feel like They almost miss the fact that they actually have to be the person to do the work. They think the person that they're learning from is going to do the work for them. And I've watched this happen a few times. But then I think on the other side, you then have another person who is constantly consuming free information, free podcasts, free audio books, free webinars. You see them on every single free thing that you ever do or someone else does. You just see the same person. You just know that they're going to be there, but they never ever take the action to then take that step forward. And what happens is they get stuck because they don't actually quite know how to move forward because they haven't got the right people around them or the right people guiding them to almost just take five minutes, ten minutes, an hour to sit down with them and say, well, how are you going to implement this? Like, what's the idea here? And sometimes to actually move forward, you have to invest. in with the right person or the right people. So I'm kind of in the middle now. I used to be very one sided and kind of don't invest in courses and I feel I'm in the middle now where I'm saying to people. Do your due diligence, don't jump too fast, take time to understand your why. But when you're actually ready to do it, speak to people who have already invested with that person. Get some genuine real life examples from that person to know the results and know the work that was done and then decide and trust your gut and make a decision from there. And once you make that decision, don't start umming and ah-ing and all of that, just jump. Like you've made a decision, just go for it. Because now, for example, I also invest with a lot of business mentors now, Libby, so I'm on kind of like a different trajectory. And I'm happy to invest in those business mentors and coaches because I'm speaking to people who have worked with them and I'm seeing their results and therefore I'm like, okay, now I'm ready to go to the next level of what I'm doing. And so I'm also investing in my own education. But I agree with you what you're saying. And this is why actually I've, um I talk so deeply about your why and kind of aligning yourself to it because that's why I think that it's important to understand where you're gonna start and then move on from there. So I'm still very much in the middle. think go slow, but invest with the right people. And I know there's a lot of wrong ends out there. I'm aware of this, I know. But just sort of do it the right way if you can. And if you're not, you're learning at the end of the day and it's never going to be the perfect road is it? Absolutely. But I liked what you said, I liked what you said and I agree with it which is when you don't have a lot of money and you have cash flow a lot of people immediately rush to think about the strategies of uh rent-to-rent, deal sourcing, management etc etc you just made an excellent point which is if you really want to get into property why don't you go and do something within property which is a business such as becoming a surveyor or starting your own company. or EPC ratings, et cetera, et cetera. Like you can literally set up your own company, learn, go do. You can even become a trades person. If you really wanted to, you can go and become a plumber or a electrician. You can become anything, but it could be within the property sector. So I think what I'd love everyone to really think about is kind of expanding their mindset to think, well, hold on, what could I do? It doesn't just have to be these strategies. So, and I love that, but me and you had a very similar start to our journey. You with your rent to rent essay. I obviously did rent to rent essay and the rent to rent. So we both started there and both kind of decided actually we're not so sure about this. So then talk to me about now then. So you gave up the renter to essay and then you went on to do this amazing flip and you literally documented this flip Libby through social media and you shared the good, the bad and the ugly. So talk to me about that flip and that project and kind of the maybe, you know, what happened with that? Maybe some lessons that you could give to it even stems to before I even got the flip, like be so careful when you're buying. There's two pains when you buy in a flip. One, you can't find one to have you ever paid or does it still stack? And that, that stays with you. Even when you've your offer accepted and you're in legal, you're thinking, is this right? whatever. And I think you've just got, I am so cautious is when I say I take calculated risks. It took me forever to find this flip. May I just say. Like it took me months and so many viewings and times on right move. Finally secured the flip. Brilliant. And got started. It was chaos at times. I self-managed it. So I didn't just get a main builder. I was like, this is my university. I want to learn. I want to be on site every day. I want to be seeing the trades, not getting in the works. They need to do the job, but I need to see what they're doing, see how this works. I'd learned a lot about it, but I thought I need to be on site and I need to physically see it for myself. So that's basically what happened. However, it's, it was just drama after drama. To be honest, Athena, there was just honestly anyone around me at the time. We've got a joke anyway. People think I attract chaos because there's just always, I think I'm always striving for something, always doing something. There's always chaos. I can walk down the street and there's chaos as something happens, but I've got this house and people are like, what? What is going on? Like how, how is this bad luck? But I tell you what, I learned so much, so much that going forward, I would apply to other projects and I genuinely think they would run so, so well. And I think I could honestly do multiple at once to that level. Cause I really did do it to the, the aim of the objective was to do it to a high level. But I think obviously it was my first time doing a refurb. It wasn't my first time dealing with trades. Cause I've done that through the lettings job, but It was my first time finding my own trades, dealing with the quotes and the works that they were going to be doing, meeting them, stage payments, monitoring the words. All of that was completely new to me. It's a complete different like ball game in life. Like it's hard. And I think being a young girl, it made it seriously hard. There was times I would just be gritting my teeth, trying not to say something. because I did have some people actually very early on that were very, very disrespectful on site. And I'm not even saying that lightly. know a lot of girls might say like, yeah, I was different, but I'm talking like the comments were horrendous. And I thought it was normal em like to hear stuff like that. But my boyfriend would... be like, no, because he's a gas engineer and he'd be like, no, this is ridiculous. Like that, that is not right. Like he'd been on so many sites and he was like, they shouldn't be saying that to you. So I actually had to get rid of them. Um, and there was a lot of problems there, but it, again, it taught me what's right and what's wrong. So it was a constant thing with trades of there was some disrespect there. They'd be asking for their invoices, paying for works they hadn't finished or done yet. So it's obviously a conversation. It's a bit awkward. And I think really they just pushed the luck. But I'd say once I got to like plastering out of the way, the, the refurb, it flew and it did so well. It's like the decorating, the snagging, like the final little bits and the staging. From that point, I really, really just flew with the refurb, got it on the market and it was sold within 10 days. And I'm talking like off-rack, that is off the market in 10 days. And I, you know, we're getting into conveyance and so it flew on the backend, but for that initial start, there was, there was a lot of problems. Yeah, I can imagine like being young and being a woman with trades for the first time where you're also learning, like as you said, that was your university. That must have been very, very difficult for you, for you to handle. And I've got no doubt that there are different types of trades out there in different levels of respect. And they might have thought to themselves, we've been in, we've been in this industry so long. They were probably, you know, they might've been sort of telling you what to do. and I can only imagine like there are things that I don't even know, like when the trades come around and they say things and I can only imagine it must feel quite... makes you feel like you're doubting yourself as well because you don't know if they're saying it's right or wrong and you're just sort of following their expertise but if they're they're disrespectful as well that must be very very difficult to deal with absolutely and especially when you're you're doing your first one because you know you must be feeling so proud of yourself to have gotten to the stage and to do what you're doing and then to have people kind of like make you feel not good about yourself and disrespect you that must be a quite a young age that's quite a difficult thing to deal with as well. So I'm so pleased that you shared that so openly as well because I think what happens now is I think... I think the conversations I have with guys at the moment tend to be very much like, oh, well, the world is changing and we see so many women now at networking events. And to be honest with you, sometimes this is what they say to me. They say to you, be honest with you, sometimes we see even more women than men at networking events now. And we really feel that shift. I'm like, that's fine. I see that. But what we're talking about is actually what's happening on site. Actually what's happening when trades are speaking to women who are the project managers. Mm. and the level of respect that is either there or not. And I think a lot of guys miss this part because it's not on socials. It isn't there being forecast because it's just happening to you, literally. And I think that that's why girls, you know, you're talking about, you know, your why and your purpose and everything. That is why girls and property exists is because these conversations need to happen. You know, there is somebody listening to this podcast right now, Libby, who literally is going through what you're going through I have no doubt and then listening to this going oh do you know what's not just me I'm not the problem they are the problem and I think that's a really important thing to talk about we can talk about it for the literally hours because I think it's incredible. so with the flip then, so and again, I think what we have to make people aware of is the reason you were able to get that flip is you didn't have the cash yourself, but you were able to get a private investor, which was a family member who meant that you can go and do that. And I talked to people all the time about saying your family and friends are your lowest hanging fruit, aren't they? They're people that really know you and are going to invest in you as it were. So this flip happens and I presume it was a success that you're now able to kind of have as a lump sum that you're able to now live on and not work full time, is that right? yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the case. Amazing. So you've now got this flip under your belt and I know that you're going to want to go again. But in the meantime, as you said in beginning of the podcast, when you're doing flipped, you've got to think about cashflow and you've got to think, right, I've got this lump sum that that's not necessarily cashflow. That's just a lump sum that I'm taking to live on what was in my bank account. So what then led you to now thinking about separate to property, a cash flowing business idea and how you got to that. Yeah, it was Christmas when I was mid-referb. I'm on site. I'm dealing with all sorts of problems. And I thought, this is all fine and well. And I know that like the money's going to be, well, this is the thing with the flip. You don't know if it's going to sell. You hope it's going to sell, but you know, exit strategies in place. And I'm thinking, but when this is gone, what's the plan? And obviously we're months off it been finished. And I also, I found it very lonely in property and I find it very, I still find it very lonely now. something I'm really having to work on. do struggle at the moment, em working for yourself and em even not being around people, I'm not good with it. So I was like, I need something that's social in my life. And particularly when this is finished, I need to have something there. Part of it was fueled by the cashflow thing, because flips obviously get a lump sum, which is brilliant. I mean, to be honest with you, I haven't actually spent a penny of the money I've made. I've just been living off what I'm still making at the letting agents. Cause I'm really, I still, I still am like, no, you shouldn't be taking money yet. And I should, and I should just go live my life. It's just how I work. But when you get the flips, obviously it's brilliant, but you need that money in the meantime, you need to live. need to be able to pay things, pay for the unexpected. And I was like, need something. So that's where my new businesses come from. And I'd say the main driving factor was also to get out of the house and speak to people and see people in a positive light. Property can be incredibly negative and it's like firefighting every day is always problems. You're always solving things. So my best friend has a clinic in Leeds where she offers these luxury treatments and I'd always be at her house like, we'd be both very, that business minded. It's always a great conversation. And I'd be there talking about my problems in property or like my business and she'd be talking about things she's struggling with, whatever. And the main thing for me was I feel lonely. feel like I need something else in my life. It's positive. And I need something like almost to get up and get that glam for like property. You should see me on site. It isn't pretty. I'm there in dusty boots. A uh that was black is now white. I look like I've been rolling one on the floor in it. em I'm covered in muck and it reminds me of when I had horses. used to go to Morrison's and all my horse riding gear. Like I'd be rocking up at like supermarkets to get some dinner and stuff. Yeah, just look like not glam. So I was like, need something to, you know, remind myself, like, you know, feel good. So I trained in this treatment, which is semi-permanent eyebrows, which is a high paying treatments alert and boys are high sort of charging treatment as well. And trained in that. Um, whilst I was still flipping this house, still refurbing and I've got started with it. I then put on, I sold the flip. went on Instagram, I explained to everyone, look, I'm just having a bit of a break. I'm just setting up this business. Um, and basically what I'm doing behind the scenes is I'm doing models at a discount to build up my social media. So building up that social thing, which obviously I've already done through property. And I've done that with a personal branding, like view. I'm now doing that with the brow page and it is, it is paying off. I've now started to take the full paying clients on, which is brilliant. And it's a point where like, if I can just get a couple of those a week, I can come back to property and I am missing property. I seriously am missing it, but it's just something I've got to ride out of the moment. And I've got to just build up this business so that I know I've got that cashflow and then the property is going to take a complete different shift. I am going to keep flipping for a bit to build up that cash pot, but I do want to start holding and I want to start to have a buy to let portfolio. And I'm of the mindset of as long as I can afford to live off the cash of the browse, there's nothing that property can give me other than in 10 years time, like the wealth from the appreciation. And I'm willing to ride out however hard it is to be a landlord and whatever. So I'm just, yeah, I'm just going with the flow. I absolutely love that and I love how you pivoted and you transitioned into it as well. And again, it's this notion about cash be wealth. I think people pigeonhole themselves. feel like they almost feel like they've started this. Let's say that someone starts to rent an essay thing like you've done in Harrogate. They almost feel like they have to then stay there. And because you built up such a fantastic social media presence with property, you could have potentially, Libby, been a person who thought to yourself, well, I've built that up now. probably just keep that going because I built it up for so long as opposed to almost if you like pivoting and having to start again and what I love is you've just given a great example which is with the brow stuff you just said well look I got trained and I had to do that and invest in my education which is what you've done technically and then you've got these models in that discounted rates then build up your portfolio of eyebrows if you like and if we really think about that it's the same as property Like build up your credibility, build up your experience, build up your ah knowledge as it were, you know, and then go out and then go and do X, Y, Z as it were. You know, loads of people say to me all the time that I can't take on a rent to rent because I can't show anything for it. I can't take on an investor because I can't show anything for it. Okay, why are you doing that bit then? Why aren't you building up your experience working with other people saying to a person, uh can I help you in your business? Can I come and learn and learn, et cetera, et cetera. So I love it and I love the fact that because I'm really into business living like business is something that I'm really into. I'm really learning about kind of this cash flowing nature. So just to check, are you still doing the lettings agency thing as well as the browse or just the browse? Yeah, no. So I do the Letting Agents Friday, Saturday. Um, and then I do the browse pretty much the rest of my week, which is too much time for me really. But most of my time is just content. Like tomorrow, for example, is a day in clinics. I've got, um, one new set of browse. I'm actually doing a lash lift, which is the only other thing I do, but it's just another add on I do. And then a brow top up. So it's a full day in clinic, which will be all round content. like I'll probably get like 10. pieces of concept from tomorrow. And then the rest of my week is just editing and studying as well. Like really studying hooks, how to build it, what gets people to convert, like what's doing well. And it's just that obviously there's other things I'm doing, like business cards to go into like local clinics and stuff to try to set up referral schemes and whatever. But yeah, that's basically my plan at the moment. And just every single day, it's just consistency. It's boring. I'm going to be honest. It's really boring. It's not boring. It's not. I don't see it as boring at all because you're building your future. Like this is why it's not boring. And actually you just made a really good point there because I think this is what happens to too many people and I think they skip this bit. So for example, I mentor people within the sector and what happens is I feel like when they come to me, they want to be at stage eight or stage seven or eight, but they have not even attempted to start at stage one, two or three, et cetera. And what I say to them is, and I can see it in their eyes, they're like, oh God, this is the boring bit. I'm like, yes, this is the boring bit, but you have to do the boring bit in order to get there. For example, market research. Not enough people. Like when I ask them questions, and actually I do this now pre taking them on because I want them to have already done the market research before I start mentoring them, is they'll come to me on a discovery call and they'll say to me, I want to do X strategy in this area. And I'm like, okay, talk to me about your area. Talk to me about what you found. Talk to me about the research you've done. And they're like, I haven't done any research. And I'm like, okay, well, how'd you know it's going to work then? You know? And like for you, this is what you're now looking at. You're saying it's boring stuff. but you're actually setting yourself up to be what you can be. And I'll give you an example within a business thing that I do, is I always, always now try and do as much market research as I can do for girls and property. So for example, within my own community, when I'm setting up these workshops that I now do quarterly, before I announce what the workshop is going to be on, I say to the girls, what do you want to learn about? What is it that you want me to bring to you? it that you're looking for and you know what I had an idea for one in November and I put a poll out to be like who would want to do this majority said no majority said no and I went fantastic market research brilliant they don't want it fabulous great I still don't know what they want but at least I know what they don't therefore I'm not then gonna try and sell tickets to a workshop that nobody wants so it's it's just doing your market research ask your audience like really know what it is that they want so I I love that and and and I think me and you absolutely sing from the same uh hymn menu when we're talking about cash flowing cash flow. the wealth and that's where I'm at now. You know, I've got my buy-to-let portfolio. I'm potentially looking at getting into land and since speaking to Rachel Knight title splitting as well and doing that, but from a very, very slow and steady and if you like boring type of strategy whilst it just accumulates, cause I'm in the South, but as well it accumulates the capital appreciation element of it. But then the cash flowing strategies of girls and property and everything else that I do like that's then cash generation. And I think that that's where people should really start thinking to themselves. Okay, actually, is there a different way to do things? We don't just have to do this strategy or this strategy. So with the flip then, Libby, just to kind of finish off the podcast and start because I love always talking about this on this podcast. I think that you'd give me a really good one here. What was like a property disaster that you reckon you've experienced either with the essay or with the flip, like a story that you could give the listeners to kind of be like, Okay, cool. You know, this is the reality actually of taking these projects on. gosh, it's the electrician disaster, which I think I've, I've talked about on my socials and it's just, honestly, it was. I haven't heard this, I haven't heard it. Oh, I've never felt stressed like Athena. It was hell. Like genuinely, I felt I just didn't eat. It was horrendous. I haven't talked about it fully, but I'm gonna. I was in a property group, which is a subscription and they give you help on like getting into property and raising money and stuff. And I got recommended an electrician who obviously I'm relatively new, but I... began to do my checks on this person, this contractor. And I was a bit like, I'm not 100 % sure on him. I got given certificates by him, which proved that he was able to do electrical work. And I'm going to this group, like the people that run the group and own the group. And I'm like, are you sure that he's like able to do this work and whatever? There was just some gut feeling. There's something about me. My intuition is so strong. It's ridiculous. It's scary. And I was like, there's something not sitting right. But anyway, fast forward, let's keep going. I must have asked these people multiple times, like, you sure that this is fine? Like, do I need anything else? How do I check? Because basically, electrics, should be with, it's NAPI or NIC, EIC. There are a couple of others, I think, but they're the main ones. Gas, obviously, Gas Safe Register, which you can check online. It's obviously new to me, so I don't 100 % know. It's a whatever. So anyway, start the works. paid for my materials which are on site. Electrician starts, he brings all his materials, made this payment. He said your rewire will be done in like five working days. So I'm like, brilliant, that's great. I'm gonna get my plasterers somewhat lined up because the central heating was on chat to be done at the same time. And there were just a few red flags for context. Three weeks later, this rewire is still not done. And this is again, this is completely my fault because I should not have given a time, but he'd had a newborn baby and I was like, you know, he's got stuff going on in his life. I didn't know about that. But anyway, fast forward, I keep saying to this, how do you tell them? They're not educators. They've just got this this network that you pay to be in and whatever and they help you. I kept saying to the people that run that, are you like, there's something not right here. He's in hotels nearby, but he's not actually at my house, because he was from where they are, whatever. I was like, he's just not turning up. Something not right, but I'm not sure. Yeah, you finally be stopped stressing, it's fine. And then one day I just was like, no, there's something not right. And I rang my friend and I said, I think I've got a problem. said, I don't know about this electrician, there's something weird going on. And one of my contractors had made a comment and had been like, Can you do that with your rewire? Like is that in a zone? And I started Googling it, I'm thinking, I don't have a clue about electric. So I have not got a clue, but I spent all night Googling it, still stalking this guy, like looking for it. I ended up ringing, NAPI and N-I-C-E-I-C and whatever. And they said, no, this guy's not registered. So I'm thinking, oh my God, like, what am I gonna do? This is a massive problem. I ended up, my friend got her next door neighbor to come and look around, cause he's actually a electrician. And my friends are I he finally be like, I'm sure we can rectify it. And within like 30 seconds of this guy been in, he's going, that's not in his zone. That's not to regs that's spurring off all these terms. And like you've said, you just want to put your head in your hands and cry. And I'm not a crier. And I was just like, Oh my God, like I feel sick. So he's going round and I'm thinking, Oh my God, I've got plaster supposedly coming next week. What we're going to do. This is horrendous. He's chased all my walls out. And he, this guy was like, this is. absolute state. This is horrendous. This is really bad. He'd like chased away, didn't need to, my pasta bill actually by the time I started went through the roof because of the extra bond and stuff they'd had to use and whatever. It was just an absolute nightmare. So I said to this previous guy, said, right, you're not coming back. Like you're not coming back. And he's like threatening, caught on me saying my sister, da da. And I ended up speaking to my sister at the time. said, where do I stand here? said, So I got my facts straight and I was like, then the day this doesn't solve the problem, this needs restarting. So that's when I met my amazing electrician now who literally saved me. He came round. em I was actually in the letting agents this day. So I think he went round by himself with the key safe and he's ringing me and going, this is atrocious. This is horrendous. And I mean, to be honest, trade slate each other, they slag each other off, but I could tell it were bad. And em I said, I said to her, I said, don't even really want to save this. want to rip out and restart. I said, this is a family house. It could go up in flames by what the sounds of it from what you're telling me with it being that bad. So that weekend we literally ripped it all out. We had like four electricians in there. They rewired this house in two days, two days. I couldn't believe it while I'm still getting front of the court and this group are still not really, they were sort of trying to help me, but I didn't really get like an apology. And I remember at the time it really wound me up. And I remember thinking, That's not right. I'm paying because I'm still new in property and I've just been sent this absolute cowboy. I've had to get myself out of it. Try managing that with a family member who's wondering what on earth's going on. I'm chucking all my materials in my car to come home because I thought, well, if I leave them here, he was then expecting his first fixed stage payment. So if I don't pay it, he's just going to get these materials and go. So I thought... It was like 10 o'clock at night. was winter. It was pitch black. I'm in this house with no electric lights, anything. And I'm loading my car with all of this electrical whatever. uh car was full Athena, like absolutely full of like sockets, alarms, wire, everything. I was like, this is a disaster. And yeah, he was just kept threatening court and stuff on me. So I ended up saying like, I'm happy to receive a letter from me solicitor. Cause at this point I was so wound up. mean, I was just like, this really did annoy me. And he never said anything again. So I said, look, I'm happy to defend myself. Didn't hear from him again. Yeah, wow. Wow, wow, wow. my God. That's a task and a half. But you know what hasn't put you off? still, you still, you know, and you now, you now found your right electrician. I know it's awful. Like I know it's awful Libby, but you've now found the right electrician when now if you go and do your next split or a couple of them, you know that that's the electrician that you're going with. do you know what? It's so difficult. I've had to learn the hard way as well through recommendations. And of course, within the and property community, know, people are always recommending people but I have one rule and I have one rule and I make it very very clear within the community, well I have a couple of rules. The first one is if you're going to recommend someone you must have used them personally on your and know them personally and if someone makes a recommendation I always say can you confirm you have used this personally and you know this person, number one, and number two I always say to the girls you must do your own due diligence and I'm telling you like for example if you'd have come to me and gone I'm not sure about this I'd have gone, don't use it then. If you're not sure, there is a reason you're not sure, let's try find you a new one. I'm not going to be there being like, yes, you must use this specific person. No, of course not. No, that's insane. So, it's so tough, isn't it? When you're starting out, because you of course put your trust in this specific circle community. Um, and, these things happen. They've happened to me. They happen to other people. You've just got to almost, there comes a point I feel where you just, well, is there that you come point maybe you don't actually because I'm still riding some waves at the moment myself but it gets easier as time goes on you know you get more people and you know it's never gonna be finished it's never gonna be perfect but you have that but gosh you have been through quite a lot haven't you with that flip absolutely but again, I just feel like my ability to deal with stress now is so I just, yeah, can smash it. Obviously they didn't force me to use them at all, but it was just. just a recommendation in you and you and you have the people that you trusted I totally understand know. And it's just, it was just so frustrating at the time. Like it cost me money. It cost me time. It cost me so much stress. was horrendous. And one thing now, the next refurb, I will be ruthless. Absolutely ruthless. People didn't line my pocket. They didn't care about my pocket. Well, I don't care about yours. I know that sounds really horrible and people will probably like, don't want to work with you, but I was so, so given and so understanding of contracts as personal circumstances, I took the stress and I took the problem of, right, okay. Oh, you're not feeling very well. No problem. I'll move my next person back. It can't, even though they'd been on the night out at the weekend and I knew they had like, it was obvious. And it's quite a common thing with trades is they don't seem to tech as much, like they don't take the responsibility that you do as a developer. And that's why working with the good ones. I found the best ones. And now I found the good ones. I am more given with those situations because I actually care because I know you care. But these people that I've used early on when I've noticed that there's just no level of like turning up or doing good work or you just been rude. You've got to go. I can't work with you. And I think I was too nice at the start. Like I was too like, Oh, it'll be all right. And I take the stress. I've now got my really good people I can use, but anyone else knew that comes along if you're not bringing me the value if you're not caring about my pocket and my house and you're gonna have to go I'm really sorry but we just we can't work. Do know what though, still see your first one as a massive success, even though there was so much turmoil. If you think about Libby, like that was your first one where you learn all the lessons on your first one. Like my first one, you know, was nowhere near this, like it wasn't a flip in the first place. was a, it was a buy and hold, but I spent way too much money on it. Way too much money on it. I made loads of mistakes on it. I spent way too much money. Like it will always be the first one that didn't ever really make me a huge amount, but was the one I learned all my lessons on, you know, the that you actually walked away doing well out of it is a huge they did really well to be fair. Thank you. because you have walked away with a profit from that property, which in this day and market is difficult to do with debt with all sorts and flips and so well done you. And then the last thing I'm just going to ask you, I'm going to ask you this because I think I'd be interested in your answer to it before I let you go is so recently I've been, I've been on other people's guests on people's podcasts and they, and one of them asked me a very specific question and the specific question stumped me for about, I'd say about three minutes where I was like I don't even know how to answer this question. So I've only asked this to a couple of people on the podcast but I'd be really interested to hear your answer to it which is what's one question that nobody's ever asked you that you wish that someone would have asked you that you think could really help the listeners today? That is hard. m it has to be something that nobody's ever really asked you, you know? So something that someone's never asked me that I wish they had have done to do with property. No. No design for to with property could be to do with just you. Like what's one thing that you think would help the listeners that no one's ever asked you? Ever. Why? Like, why are you putting yourself through this stress and like, what, where has it come from? What made you like this? Why didn't you just want to settle for the normal nine to five? And I'm not saying that to tell them my reason, but I think the deep thing of why are you actually, like, where did it come from, this desire? Cause some people are happy with their nine to five and their routine, which is absolutely fine. Absolutely fine. I sometimes look at people and think I wish because it can get so hard, but no one's ever actually said like, where did this ever come from? Why do you think you've been born and you've got this desire to want more out of life and to take the harder route? And it's something I could talk about for days. So do you know what's really interesting about that? That's the question that I also ask myself. yeah, and you know what's been really interesting for me? So I only recently, it's only been within the last year, I have started on this route of deep inner work. Mm. really looking at deep in a work and kind of almost like looking at me and going, why am I this way? And what stems for me from, and it goes way back to childhood as it always does, it goes back to rejection. It goes back to kind of abandonment. goes back to loads and loads of things. it's funny, we are a special type of breed people like us, where we almost like inflict this pain upon ourselves to go, no, I know there's more to life. I know we want be entrepreneurs, I know that we don't want to have just that 95 and almost like we don't want to be controlled or told how to live our life and when to take holiday and when we'll be paid. We want to take that for ourselves and so you're 22, you're young, I'm 33, I'm 10 years older than you and I reckon at 22 I didn't really understand me at all like truthfully I didn't know who I was and I think that actually at 33 turning 34 in September, probably 34 by the time this is released I think I now I'm beginning to try and understand who I actually am What I actually want and I think I'm a lot softer than I thought I was I thought I was much much like a harder shell than I actually am and and I think that that's such a beautiful thing that you just said and We'll talk about this more me and you we'll talk about this more but but I love the fact that you have now really even just started to think about that because I wasn't thinking about that at your age I was just on a hamster wheel, just go, go, go, go, go. was in a sales job, I was very sales driven. Whereas now I'm like, well, why? Well, why are you doing this? So inner work is a beautiful thing. If you ever want to talk to me about it, I'm at the very beginning of my journey. I'm not massively into it. We can talk about it off the podcast, because I think that it's a really special place to be and it helps you to really look within you as well. And it's no one else's business. It's just for you. You don't have to share it with the world. It's very personal to you. Isn't that such a good question? is such a good question and it's one that I keep thinking about, like probably how you are, yeah, I keep thinking about it all the time, like why am I this way? So, yeah, we will talk about it definitely. uh then Libby, where can everybody find you? Because I've got no doubt that people are going to want to connect with you. They're going to want to chat to you. So where can they find you for the podcast? The main one is Instagram. it's property with Libby. I have been posting on there for years. And like I say, I'm having a bit of a break at the minute. There is a post you can read, but you can see all about that flip. I've shown you a bit about the mentor. I say my journey, my background, what I've been up to. It's all on there. That is basically my. Just documentation of my entire journey. So I will be back very soon on that with the next project, but yeah, Instagram is the best one. I love that. You should be so proud of yourself as well. Honestly, I mean that. you're doing, you're not done, you're doing an amazing job. So be really proud of yourself. It's amazing. um You're welcome. And then as always, am Athena Dobson, underscore official girls and property on Instagram. um And then don't forget Saturday 15th of November, we are holding the girls and property winter party. Girl, you got to come to this. It's going to be in Birmingham. It's not even far from you on Saturday, November, um but it's going to be great. We're going to bring all women together. You heard Libby say like usually networking events is usually male dominated. Well, this is just women. We're probably estimating about 80 women in the room. um If you're a community member you of course get free entry as a community member if you're non-community and just want to come and see what girls and property is all about come and have a dance it's only 49 pounds for a ticket so nothing crazy but let's just bring women together let's just bring everyone together let's have a dance let's have some fun and let's really see sort of the end of the year out in style so that's Saturday the 15th of November I think it's the actress and bishop in Birmingham I've never been to Birmingham before so this would be my first time so it should be great and then also um If you want any information from me, DM me. I'm also just probably by the time this is aired, probably just coming to the end of actually going to be starting the first date, which would be Thursday the 2nd of October. I've just launched the Girls and Property Accelerator program, which comes from this whole thing about what I didn't have when I first started, which is this aspect about aligning strategy with mindset to create the winning formula. So it's all about alignment deep in a work. I've got Akhtar Khan, the business psychologist, who's gonna be working with me on this, to really start with who you are as a person, what you're seeking and looking for, and then helping you with the right strategy in order to get you there. uh I've had some amazing results of this from actually some of my mentees. Many mentees start with me on Rent2Rent and end up doing flips and end up doing all sorts of other things. And I just show them a different way to actually think differently about how they might wanna see things. So if you want any information about that, start on Thursday the 2nd of October, just DME the word accelerator and we can have a chat. um But Libby, I'd love to leave you with the last words for our listeners today. So what are the final words of wisdom you'd love to impart? Thank you so much for letting me come on and share my story and I think just anyone that is wanting to get started is listening to this podcast as inspiration and figuring out what they want to do. Just sometimes you can overanalyse and I think sometimes you just need to a bit of action, like throw yourself in the deep end, fear does not take place in the comfort zone, just go to a networking event, you never know who you're going to chat to, what lessons they've had, what they wouldn't do, what they would do and I think there's just so much value from throwing yourself in. and sort of going for it. So just figure out what it is that's putting you off from starting, work against that and just get cracking and you'll figure it out on the way. Beautiful, beautiful. What an amazing podcast. can't wait for everyone to hear this one. Libby, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your energy and thank you for speaking so beautifully and so openly. um And as always guys, let us know where you're tuning in from, what you're celebrating at the moment, your favorite episodes. And don't forget to tune in every Monday from 7 a.m. where I'll be bringing amazing speakers like Libby on to share their stories and have the voice for women in property. Have an amazing week, everyone. Speak to you soon and take care. Bye.